Does God do Evil things?

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

You and me both

 

[stormdancer0]

My reasoning for Snow White = Jesus:

Both were followed around by short, hairy men
Both were betrayed
Both were "dead" until they "awoke"
Both overthrew the wicked aspects of their respective story

The myth of Lucifer is a fable, a fairy tale, developed just before the Christian Era in an attempt to reconcile evil. Lucifer is a fictious character, Satan is not a name. (It's a title - the angel "named" Satan (Adversary) is Samael, one of God's loyal servants throughout the "Old Testament" scriptures)

L.

*sigh*
So much BS, so little time.
Where does the scripture say the disciples were short.
I don't know many people who HAVEN'T been betrayed.
Jesus was not "dead." He was DEAD. No quote marks needed. He was dead, no heartbeat, no brainwave activity. DEAD.
Good will always overthrow wicked in the long run.

The most effective lie Satan every perpetuated was that he does not exist. Or that he somehow is "good." Sucked you in, didn't he?

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

*sigh*
So much BS, so little time.
Where does the scripture say the disciples were short.
I don't know many people who HAVEN'T been betrayed.
Jesus was not "dead." He was DEAD. No quote marks needed. He was dead, no heartbeat, no brainwave activity. DEAD.
Good will always overthrow wicked in the long run.

The most effective lie Satan every perpetuated was that he does not exist. Or that he somehow is "good." Sucked you in, didn't he?

I can see the no expense was sparred in the humor department here.

The most effective lie the Christian Church ever perpetuated was - damn, where do I begin?

Warping and perverting ancient Holy Texts that were not their own in a language not their own

Persecuting their own for having different ideas, thoughts, and opinions

A track record of perverting their own Holy texts in an attempt to "cover" holes that non-believers might attack (Please reference "Against Celsus" before asking me "What?!")

Invading and forcibly converting people who they'd never met and had no reason to disturb

I mean, the list really does go on and on. No one denomination or branch of Christianity has all the truth. Before you go off on your judgemental streak, Ms. Hypocrite, please know that I, too, am an ordained Minister and am very well educated in the fields I choose to discuss.

Blessings!
L.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

Oh, and, by the way, I do not believe Satan to be "good" - I believe s/he (angels = androgynous) is a loyal servant of God simply doing their job.

L.

 

[razeontherock]

All hail the 23 year old minister and forget everything else, because he is "very well educated." Can we get a witness?

<Cricket-cricket>

Pro 22:28 Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

All hail the 23 year old minister and forget everything else, because he is "very well educated." Can we get a witness?

<Cricket-cricket>

Pro 22:28 Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.

I am sorry you've had more time than me and less to show for it. There's no need to begrudge me and get hostile now.

L.

 

[dinonum]

I think that "evil" is a word based solely on human understanding. God created ALL, which includes Evil. If he is Sovereign than he is responsible for ALL Evil as well.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

I think that "evil" is a word based solely on human understanding. God created ALL, which includes Evil. If he is Sovereign than he is responsible for ALL Evil as well.

Watch yourself! This is kind of what I said and now I'm being labelled Satan's Pawn.

L.

 

[razeontherock]

Ms. Hypocrite, please know that I, too, am an ordained Minister and am very well educated in the fields I choose to discuss.

On this particular topic, you have no first-hand experience. You've never done battle w/ satan himself, in person. You speak from head knowledge, no doubt passed on to you from someone else who also completely lacks real experience on the subject.

Be glad you don't have this on your resume, and you might pray it stays that way, FWIW. At a younger age than you I was not so fortunate, I'm twice your age, and there are other Pastors who are both well-educated and experienced that you choose to butt heads with here. Doesn't your Bible instruct you to honor those with experience?

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

Pretty sure it does.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

On this particular topic, you have no first-hand experience. You've never done battle w/ satan himself, in person. You speak from head knowledge, no doubt passed on to you from someone else who also completely lacks real experience on the subject.

Be glad you don't have this on your resume, and you might pray it stays that way, FWIW. At a younger age than you I was not so fortunate, I'm twice your age, and there are other Pastors who are both well-educated and experienced that you choose to butt heads with here. Doesn't your Bible instruct you to honor those with experience?

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

Pretty sure it does.

You mean like dealing with ouija boards, tarot cards, apostasy, total loss in faith in everything, having God taken from you, being lost then thinking you've been found only to find out you're lost again?

Let the elders that rule well... I'm sorry - when did you start ruling and when did you do it well?

Razeontherock, you do not know me. You do not know the experiences I have had. You do not know the things which I have been educated in or who educated me. I would advise that you keep your mouth shut on that which you lack knowledge in.

L.

 

[razeontherock]

You display both your lack of experience on the subject matter, as well as a lack of humility. Not to mention that the judgment you just measured out is merely projection of what you've already demonstrated just a few posts ago.

Had I shown character flaws like that I would've never been eligible to be ordained. HTH

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

You display both your lack of experience on the subject matter, as well as a lack of humility. Not to mention that the judgment you just measured out is merely projection of what you've already demonstrated just a few posts ago.

Had I shown character flaws like that I would've never been eligible to be ordained. HTH

I will admit to a lack of humility. I am boastful, prideful, and exceedingly arrogant. However, I do not lack the maturity you so desperately need, Sir Raze.

A pleasant evening to you,

L.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Lets just go along with the wisdom you claim to possess for a moment. God does evil things, created evil and is evil as well as good. And we are made in His image. So tell me, wise one, why does He tell us to overcome that which He is? And why does He judge us on that which He is, as you claim Him to be. I just suppose He has greater expectations of us than for Himself? Think it thru before teaching others things that make none sence.
Jesus, as the morning star, possessed both the spirit of the tree of life plus the knowledge of good and evil but never sinned. Go back and read my other post about satan and you'll realize just in common sence alone that there is an evil outside of the Creator, that it is pride that Lucifer had and that Jesus didn't. Jesus' overcoming was the downfall of evil because it made the way for others to have access to God, that satan , in Job, had also, but satan has no more because he is no longer the morning star= lucifer, except to those prideful people who belong to his domain. That domain is within the knowledge of good and evil. Your knowledge is bringing you only to the mercy seat of justification, but the sanctity of God is sadly lacking.
btw, the one-up on the pastor credentials is just more pride, anyone can get worldly recoginition, big deal, what God exalts is what matters.

 

[razeontherock]

So let's get to the thread title, which really is a weighty question. I will immaturely blurt out a position, just to see how it goes:

G-d does not do things that are truly evil. He's done horrendous things from our perspective, and promises to do so again, once more, and far worse. That final Judgment, will it be evil?

I say no it won't. It will still be very bad for many, and they will truly experience it as evil.

Most of the other things people would experience as "evil" G-d does not Himself do, but has satan (et al) do His dirty work for Him.

*ahem* That's my theory, to date. Blast away.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

So here's the blast...God doesn't 'get satan to do His dirty work' but He does allow it because that's just the kinda world we live in.

The knowledge of 'good' and 'evil' needs learning and overcoming because even our good is not good enough and only what is of the Lord will remain...that doesn't include our good or our evil, altho I believe the knowledge or awareness of what we have been saved from will be kept but we'll live in the awareness of being in Him (sinless) in eternity...but not untill then.
The black backdrop of evil is allowed because that's what shows the light for our learning.

I once posed the question of God being both good and evil and God's answer to me (which almost gave me a heart attach at the time it scared me so much) was "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION MY NAME?

 

[Jeshu]

Beloved the truth of the lie ruling us down here is simply an abomination!(Daniel 9, Matt 24, Rev 17 & 18)


The god of this world with his harlot or our Dearly Beloved God and Heavenly Father and His Son our Lord, Saviour and Big Brother - it is best to understand it like that.

For down here we are in a world where The Truth ruling is both Good but also evil - for we keep mix light and darkness - as humanity wants to know so badly what wrong is - that even in perfect paradise - we on the instigation of the lying evil one - preying on our God given kingdom - choose the lie to rule us and not God's Truth.

So see our Holy, Holy, Holy, Father - dying right in front of us - Though we all knew The Truth has more to say than wrath - why would we His children believe the lie and hold onto the wrath of God? - Surely we know The Father poured it on His Son and The Son took it to Hell and took the captives stuck there Home with Him 3 days later?


So God is not doing any punishing from that perspective - the lie ruling from Hell does - for humanity holds on to lies for dear life - refusing to believe The Truth - and so keep giving Satan opportunity after opportunity to cause havoc - this is our Greatest Sin - forcing our Heavenly Father to be The Truth of our lies - Matt 24 - instead of stepping into His Truth and be save from any kind of disastrous happenings - now matter who vaporises us.

Humanity keeps killing The Truth - keeping The Lie installed instead - who keeps hurting us really badly - a right creep he is - and then foolishly we call such acts of God without as much as blushing the lies in which we walk - though we pierce His loving heart so and keep nailing Him on The Cross - just as Jesus said we do.


Love


Please see for yourself what The Truth says about the time The Lie is exposed - as this is what Jesus says about it all! (in Daniel 7 & Revelation 1 - Jesus also talks about this.)

Matt 24:14-35

"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel&#8212;let the reader understand&#8212; then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now&#8212;and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect&#8212;if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn.


They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

 

[Preecher]

. It just confirms for me that God is in ultimate control.

Now that's a fact!

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

Lets just go along with the wisdom you claim to possess for a moment. God does evil things, created evil and is evil as well as good. And we are made in His image. So tell me, wise one, why does He tell us to overcome that which He is? And why does He judge us on that which He is, as you claim Him to be. I just suppose He has greater expectations of us than for Himself? Think it thru before teaching others things that make none sence.
Jesus, as the morning star, possessed both the spirit of the tree of life plus the knowledge of good and evil but never sinned. Go back and read my other post about satan and you'll realize just in common sence alone that there is an evil outside of the Creator, that it is pride that Lucifer had and that Jesus didn't. Jesus' overcoming was the downfall of evil because it made the way for others to have access to God, that satan , in Job, had also, but satan has no more because he is no longer the morning star= lucifer, except to those prideful people who belong to his domain. That domain is within the knowledge of good and evil. Your knowledge is bringing you only to the mercy seat of justification, but the sanctity of God is sadly lacking.
btw, the one-up on the pastor credentials is just more pride, anyone can get worldly recoginition, big deal, what God exalts is what matters.

First of all - on ordination credentials - that was a reference to stormdancer who felt the need to claim she was a "well-educated Pastor". I was reassuring her that our credentials were not so different. You and razeontherock mistake me as aiming it toward the two of you. I apologize for the confusion.

I do not claim wisdom, I claim knowledge. Please do not put words in my mouth. I do not appreciate it, educated readers do not appreciate it, and it errodes your position in a debate.

After reading this latest post I can see why you are having trouble understanding my position more rationally. Please do not take this personally, I am simply attempting to clarify this for you. First, let's look at this:

Lets just go along with the wisdom you claim to possess for a moment. God does evil things, created evil and is evil as well as good. And we are made in His image. So tell me, wise one, why does He tell us to overcome that which He is? And why does He judge us on that which He is, as you claim Him to be. I just suppose He has greater expectations of us than for Himself? Think it thru before teaching others things that make none sence.

You are attempting to rationalize God in terms of humanity. You are trying to make God similar to humans in order to understand Him. This is something a lot of people do. Of course, it is very difficult to understand the infinite with our finite brain.

What we're discussing requires us to use limited human terminology. Unfortunately this simply won't cut it. God, of course, is not "evil", just as He isn't "good". He's not malevolent or violent just as he is not benevolent or peaceful. God is just God. God made the beautiful, wonderfully-scented rose just as He made the sharp, dangerous thorns that jealously guard these flowers. It is only by our limited perception that we view roses as "good" and thorns as "bad".

God also acts. He does things we see as miraculous, extraordinary, a blessing unto us. Sometimes things happen and we cannot reconcile how a God who can do such extraordinary things could also do such terrible things. It became necessary to create a scapegoat - someone we could say worked against God. God gave us a beautiful baby boy, then the child suddenly dies in his sleep one night. How could God bless us with this child and then take him away? Surely it was the work of some maligned spirit! But the sources we have simply disagree. Isaiah 45:7 is a blatant confession, from God's own mouth, that He and He alone creates darkness and light, makes peace and works evil.

God is in perfect balance in all things. In Jewish Kabbalah we understand God as two parts of One Whole (Echad - One) / YHVH, which is a Masculine aspect. This aspect is raw power, unlimited potential, violence, aggression, judgement, wrath. YHVH is like the Sun - it can give life, but is better suited to taking it away. Men are the embodiment, philosophically, of YHVH.

Then there's the Shekhinah, which is the Feminine aspect of God. The Shekhinah is balance, unconditional love, peace, mercy, wisdom, understanding. Shekhinah is like the Moon - beautiful and comforting, providing just the right amount of light to lift shadows. Women, with their ability to bring life into this world and their maternal instincts, are the embodiment of the Shekhinah.

God is neither and both of these things. Sodom and Gomorrah is an excellent example of this duality. God extended peace over their lands and people, but His patience wore thin. He gave them ample opportunity to change their ways and, despite the best efforts of His messengers, no one would heed the warning. Finally God's patience wore out and He, Himself, not Samael, Satan, rained firey brimstone down upon the cities.

So let's get to the thread title, which really is a weighty question. I will immaturely blurt out a position, just to see how it goes:

G-d does not do things that are truly evil. He's done horrendous things from our perspective, and promises to do so again, once more, and far worse. That final Judgment, will it be evil?

I say no it won't. It will still be very bad for many, and they will truly experience it as evil.

Most of the other things people would experience as "evil" G-d does not Himself do, but has satan (et al) do His dirty work for Him.

*ahem* That's my theory, to date. Blast away.

I can concur with this. While not my exact thoughts - razeontherock has it pretty much summed up here. It's a matter of perception.

L.

 

[razeontherock]

So here's the blast...God doesn't 'get satan to do His dirty work' but He does allow it because that's just the kinda world we live in.

I once posed the question of God being both good and evil and God's answer to me (which almost gave me a heart attach at the time it scared me so much) was "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION MY NAME?

I like this and think it bears a little exploration. I am always one to say G-d is not above scrutiny or being questioned, but one thing I have never done is question His Name, or His Nature. That is to say, I have always carefully guarded a certain humility before Him. Yes, even at my worst, which there's no shortage of. :o

I think this one aspect accounts for my success on that approach. So it's possible to inquire of Him, without elevating ourselves to the position of calling Him to give an account. Words seem to be failing me here, I hope that makes sense? It's very much a heart position, and a massive key!