Does God do Evil things?

[jonathonbyrd]

Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

As a very honest bible study, I would like to discuss the topic of God not only being capable of Evil, but doing Evil.

The Bible mentions "Has evil befallen a nation and God not done it?"

One of God's attributes, is that He is in complete control of everything and this last verse makes mention of that. I know that God also raises up people to do His justice.

Death is God's Justice. When people die, they are secured in their thinking and secured in their place of eternity, whether that be heaven or hell. When sin entered the world, God's justice also entered the world. Death to all because all have sinned.

God tests us to shape and mold us. God disciplines us because we are his children. God's fury brings disaster/evil for his justice.

 

[razeontherock]

War is of G-d. As a curse! Lucifer never waged war on G-d, he just wanted to be like G-d. It was the Almighty that started war.

Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, [that] I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil."

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but that's a quick study.

 

[Jakihe]

I think the word evil here is RA in Hebrew which means sorrow, calamity,troubles, etc and 'evil' was the word chosen. You have to understand the meaning according to the scriptures at hand.
Blessings

 

[jonathonbyrd]

You didn't burst my bubble, that's what I've been reading. It just confirms for me that God is in ultimate control.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

The dogma of Christianity has come to view Satan as a god apart from God. This comes from the following line of thinking:

1) God does not suffer evil to exist in His presence
2) God is omnipresent
3) Satan is evil
4) Therefore, Satan exists apart from God

In this dogma, Satan is powerful enough to defy God and thus becomes the god of evil, calamity, lies, deception.

I hold a different view on Satan. God says many times that He is the One God and there are no others. Clearly He does not consider Satan a god, or even a being with any power to defy Him. Indeed, let us turn to the book of Job and study an interaction between God and Satan -

6: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7: And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

This is clearly not what we expected from traditional Christian dogma. Surely Satan cannot enter the realms of Heaven so freely. The book of Revelation goes into quite some detail of what happens when he even thinks of trying!

This interaction actually shows something quite interesting. God calls forth all the legions of Angels and Satan joins them. From this we can see that Satan is still an angel. He and God then speak quite casually about Job.

Actually the whole story of Job is a perfect example of who and what Satan is, in the opinion of many theologians. Satan, which means "adversary" in Hebrew, is more like a prosecuting attorney or devil's advocate for the souls of men. His station in Heaven is to do the dirty work of testing and tempting - something that makes us consider him evil.

This clearly shows that God is in complete control and does not allow anyone power or station next to or above Himself. So who does the evil? God speaks on that in Isaiah:

7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ah, here God admits He creates evil. How can a benevolent God commit acts of evil? First of all, understand that anytime you say "God can't ..." you're limiting His power. (He is omnipotent, afterall) Here God reminds us of that - He alone creates light and darkness, He brings peace and causes troubles upon the Kingdoms of Men.

God is in control and no one else has power comparable to His on any level.

L.

 

[stormdancer0]

I think we are trying to place human definition on acts of God. "Good" and "evil" from our point of view are vastly different than the same from God's point of view. God didn't create darkness. He created light. Darkness is merely the absence of light. Evil is merely the absence of God. God did not create Satan to do evil. Satan did that on his own. He is "a liar, and the father of lies." That makes Satan a sinner. Not just an attorney, or an anti-advocate. He is evil.

Satan is allowed to come into God's throne room because God allows it. I don't think it's limiting God to say that God can't . . . His very nature means He does not lie, for instance. He does not destroy for no reason. We may not understand what He does or why, but that's our limitation, not His.

NO, God does not do evil things. God does things that we don't understand, which looks evil to us, but by definition, my God is good.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

I think we are trying to place human definition on acts of God. "Good" and "evil" from our point of view are vastly different than the same from God's point of view. God didn't create darkness. He created light. Darkness is merely the absence of light. Evil is merely the absence of God. God did not create Satan to do evil. Satan did that on his own. He is "a liar, and the father of lies." That makes Satan a sinner. Not just an attorney, or an anti-advocate. He is evil.

Satan is allowed to come into God's throne room because God allows it. I don't think it's limiting God to say that God can't . . . His very nature means He does not lie, for instance. He does not destroy for no reason. We may not understand what He does or why, but that's our limitation, not His.

NO, God does not do evil things. God does things that we don't understand, which looks evil to us, but by definition, my God is good.

1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Before God created the heaven and the earth there was nothing. Even the concepts of "nothing" and "void" did not exist. That God created... "the heaven and the earth" was that He created all things in them. Darkness included

2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

There was no light so that there should be no darkness.

Darkness and evil are created things.

Further, evil is the absence of God? But God is omnipresent... so...?

L.

 

[stormdancer0]

Further, evil is the absence of God? But God is omnipresent... so...?

Sorry - evil is the absence of the influence of God.

Plus, it doesn't say there was nothing before "in the beginning"

What was here before God created the universe? Who knows?

 

[jonathonbyrd]

@krimsondragon, I think that you're onto something there. I don't see the devil as the one doing all the evil things in this world. I see that God is in control of everything that happens, everything starts and ends with God.

God wanted a people that CHOSE Him, God knows that when he creates a Holy creature to love Him, it's only with the amount of love that God decides, not the creature.

God, giving us the ability to Love him by choice, creates a TRUE love for God. I keep looking back to a favorite piece of scripture "She loves much, because she was forgiven much."

The Truth Project gave a perfect example of satans roll in this world. Like you say Krimson, I do see the devil as God advocate, there are instances of other angels in the Bible leading kings astray by giving the king false testimonies through the kings Holy people.

Then again, the bible does tell us that Satan sinned, Satan is the father of lies and will be thrown into the lake of fire with the devil and the devils angels.

However, God is using the devils lies to weed out the ignorant people that don't care to be a people of God.

I like what you had to say Krimson.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

Plus, it doesn't say there was nothing before "in the beginning"

"In the beginning" refers to "In the beginning", which means that nothing existed, because it's the "beginning" of this realm.

Do you not realize that the realm you live in is completely founded upon God's Holy realm, which we call the quantum realm. This entire universe is founded upon God, literally, it's why He says that He not only created the world, but he sustains it as well.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

Sorry - evil is the absence of the influence of God.

Plus, it doesn't say there was nothing before "in the beginning"

What was here before God created the universe? Who knows?

I have spent most of my short life studying religion and spirituality and I have very different views than your mainstream Christian.

First, it depends upon your source. In "On the Origins of the World", an apocryphal text once accepted by the Christian Church, we see that there is a Supreme Being over the Jewish Creator God. What existed before Yaldabaoth, the Jewish Creator God, created the heavens and the earth? A heavenly realm known as Pleroma - which Jesus speaks much on in the Gnostic Gospels, such as the Gospel of Sophia (Sophia is the feminine aspect of Jesus) - and hundreds of Aeons, who are emanations of the Supreme Being (Jesus/Sophia is an Aeon).

Or perhaps we'll go with the view of Lurianic Kabbalists? Despite preconceived notions that Kabbalah is witchcraft or some other such nonsense, true, Jewish Kabbalah is simply the study of the metaphysical realm and the mystic teachings of the Tanakh. (Hebrew Bible - Torah, Nevai'im (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Writings) - which Christians call the Old Testament)

In Bere[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] (Genesis) we see:

1:2The earth was without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depths, but God's Spirit moved on the water's surface.

But in Hebrew we have:

1:2 Veha'arets hayetah tohu vavohu vechoshech al-peney tehom veruach Elohim merachefet al-peney hamayim.

Where "tohu, vavohu, vechoshech" stand for "emptiness, void, darkness". As noted by many Biblical scholars and Jewish sages, "tohu, vavohu, vechoshech" simply do not have a translation. They are not adjectives, such as "emptiness, darkness, void/without form, etc." They seem to be names. In Lurianic Kabbalah these are understood to be practice worlds God made before He made Eretz (Earth). They reason what happened was God shattered them and used their pieces to create Eretz. So, in this case, the verse should be:

"The Earth was Tohu, Vavohu, Vechoshech - and God's spirit moved upon the face of the waters..."

Which is what the Hebrew does seem to suggest.

However, I digress. You may add as many rungs to the ladder as you like, but eventually the ladder will end. Somewhere along the line there was a whole lot of nothing from which we got a whole lot of something.

I'm not sure what God you've been praying to stormdancer, but it seems to be the God of modern Christianity, a God that's like a puppy with big droopy eyes that can't hate and can't do evil... Sounds like grandma sat down and wrote the Bible that you're reading.

I don't use this next verse to say that I would rather have an Evil God the a Good God, I use it to show you that God is very capable of doing justice. He is more capable of delivering PERFECT JUSTICE then I would ever be, that's why He's my God.

Isaiah 13:16 (New International Version)

16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.

This is PERFECT JUSTICE in the eyes of my God. Why? because this nation did these horrible things to other nations, an eye for an eye is perfect justice in my opinion.

@stormdancer, you really shouldn't shield yourself from these things. It's clear from the verse that krimsondragon gave us, that god creates darkness and he creates evil. Evil is not an absence of God, it's a direct result FROM God because you've turned from Him.

I suppose too that you believe that God cannot dwell in Hell or that he is not in Hell at all?

Whoa now, let's not go about calling the Creator God evil. If you're a Gnostic then perhaps "Benevolent within the limitations of his power," is more precise. However, God should not be viewed as evil. If we strap a murderer into an electric chair and throw the switch are we evil? The general consensus is no - we're exacting justice.

The Jews understand God to be wrathful, vengeful, but He tempers His wrath with the attributes of mercy, patience, justice. We often see God exacting justice - but usually after a very long period of warning the people of what is coming and much mercy has been practiced.

In both Judaism and Christianity God is ultimately benevolent despite any perceived evils He might work. This is because, as stormdancer is trying to illustrate, it is a matter of perception.

Further - remember that an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

L.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

Further - remember that an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

God says an eye for an eye, you're questioning His divine judgement when you make statements like this.

I agree and understand your posts so far, but this statement is a statement directly denying Gods word as being whats best for the world.

It wouldn't leave the whole world blind, we would all know the consequences and therefore would no longer sin. However, mans imperfect justice doesn't know how to correct sin before it happens, like Gods perfect justice does.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

Of course God can dwell wherever He chooses. He chooses not to. Hell is the absence of God, by His choice.

I knew you were going to say this and it's because you've taken on the traditions of your teachers, without looking to the bible for the answer.

Psalm 139[:8a] says: ‘If I make my bed in Sheol, thou are there’.”

 

[stormdancer0]

I knew you were going to say this and it's because you've taken on the traditions of your teachers, without looking to the bible for the answer.

Psalm 139[:8a] says: ‘If I make my bed in Sheol, thou are there’.”

OF COURSE you knew I was going to say that. It's the truth, and well, we can't have THAT!!

Sheol is not hell. It is the realm of the dead, both paradise and hell.

As I said, I don't go by the "traditions of my teachers." I go by the original language, with the help of friends who are Jewish.

 

[razeontherock]

The dogma of Christianity has come to view Satan as a god apart from God.

let us turn to the book of Job and study an interaction between God and Satan -

God calls forth all the legions of Angels and Satan joins them. From this we can see that Satan is still an angel.

Sorry but, WRONG!! He didn't call Lucifer, but satan.

Isaiah 45:7
7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Ah, here God admits He creates evil. How can a benevolent God commit acts of evil? First of all, understand that anytime you say "God can't ..." you're limiting His power. (He is omnipotent, afterall) Here God reminds us of that - He alone creates light and darkness, He brings peace and causes troubles upon the Kingdoms of Men.

Nope. You're COMPLETELY overlooking the difference between making / forming and "creating." You'll have a very difficult time reconciling the first 2 chapters of Genesis with that type of thinking!

I think the word evil here is RA in Hebrew which means sorrow, calamity,troubles, etc and 'evil' was the word chosen. You have to understand the meaning according to the scriptures at hand.
Blessings

I've got the context clearly in place, thank you. Sorrow, calamity, and troubles all fit the term "evil" just FINE. Just go visit my hometown on 9/11.

The Lord allows evil to serve it's purpose, which is ultimately for good. Like if this formerly great Nation were to ever repent, for instance.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

A little judgmental there, aren't you?

Of course God can dwell wherever He chooses. He chooses not to. Hell is the absence of God, by His choice. He can do evil, but He doesn't. I think the scriptures above are taken out of context.

How could a God who is the administer of perfect justice create and perform evil?

And I haven't turned from God. I'm sorry that your god is capable of evil. Mine is 100% good. Every bit of evil described in the Bible was a result of man turning away from God, not from God Himself. Some things are difficult to understand for me, because I am not God. Some things look evil to me that God has done, but that's not because God does evil, it's because I don't understand.

And I use the Hebrew and Greek Bibles. You know, the originals? No grandma involved.

I am a well-educated pastor, so if anyone else would like the truth about God, please PM me. I will not respond to someone so ignorant that they cannot state their view without insulting me.

My God is all-powerful and performs acts according to the situation. Whether or not we perceive them as good or evil is due to our limited intelligence, wisdom, and perception.

God says an eye for an eye, you're questioning His divine judgement when you make statements like this.

I agree and understand your posts so far, but this statement is a statement directly denying Gods word as being whats best for the world.

It wouldn't leave the whole world blind, we would all know the consequences and therefore would no longer sin. However, mans imperfect justice doesn't know how to correct sin before it happens, like Gods perfect justice does.

Jesus says turn the other cheek. You're questioning His position of Divinity when you question that.

I knew you were going to say this and it's because you've taken on the traditions of your teachers, without looking to the bible for the answer.

Psalm 139[:8a] says: ‘If I make my bed in Sheol, thou are there’.”

No, this is because you're trusting your preconceived notions of Sheol as Hell. Sheol, from the Hebrew שְּׁאֹ֣ול, is the earliest idea of a Jewish afterlife. It can be translated "grave, pit, abyss" - a place of darkness where all the dead go to slumber until they are resurrected during Moshiach. (The Jewish Messianic Age which is everlasting) The Jews do not have an idea of Hell similar to the Christian idea of Hell.

OF COURSE you knew I was going to say that. It's the truth, and well, we can't have THAT!!

Sheol is not hell. It is the realm of the dead, both paradise and hell.

As I said, I don't go by the "traditions of my teachers." I go by the original language, with the help of friends who are Jewish.

As stated above, Sheol is a place of dark slumber where all the dead go until HaShem (The Name - a reference to the ineffable Name of the Jewish Creator God) ressurects all the dead during the time of the Jewish Messianic Age, Moshiach.

Sorry but, WRONG!! He didn't call Lucifer, but satan.



Nope. You're COMPLETELY overlooking the difference between making / forming and "creating." You'll have a very difficult time reconciling the first 2 chapters of Genesis with that type of thinking!



I've got the context clearly in place, thank you. Sorrow, calamity, and troubles all fit the term "evil" just FINE. Just go visit my hometown on 9/11.

The Lord allows evil to serve it's purpose, which is ultimately for good. Like if this formerly great Nation were to ever repent, for instance.

Hi razeontherock,

First of all, allow me to express my astonishment that one could provide so much fail in a single post.

Please read this article - JewishEncyclopedia.com - LUCIFER

Lucifer is not found anywhere in the Bible. This is because the Lucifer myth was a poetic construct later applied to Samael (Satan) in order to reconcile the idea of evil.

In reference to your next issue, creation, let's reference Genesis 1:1 in it's original Hebrew:

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

The first word, בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית, is B-E-R-E-S-H-I-T. I did the caps/hyphens to get around the word filter.... Ok! Anyway, בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית, translates to "origins, beginnings". In it's proper format, this word implies that there should be nothing (action, state-of-being, etc.) before it is used. I did not begin working on the car until בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית, for example. I can't start working on the car, then stop to get a beer, then return and בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית. In this sense, there is nothing before the first verse of the Bible.

L.

 

[razeontherock]

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Yeah, sorry to provide so much "fail" for your consideration.

In reference to your next issue, creation, let's reference Genesis 1:1 in it's original Hebrew: [etc etc]

This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with anything I posted. You may know Hebrew better than I, but English? Not so much. Is it perhaps not your native tongue?

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Yeah, sorry to provide so much "fail" for your consideration.

Sorry, razeontherock, it's still fail. = /

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

This is from the King James Version and is an excellent example of the heavily biased and tainted nature of this version of the Bible.

Let's look at the verse in Hebrew:

אֵ֛יךְ נָפַ֥לְתָּ מִשָּׁמַ֖יִם הֵילֵ֣ל בֶּן־שָׁ֑חַר נִגְדַּ֣עְתָּ לָאָ֔רֶץ חֹולֵ֖שׁ עַל־גֹּויִֽם׃

In the KJV the word is "Lucifer" where in Hebrew it reads "הֵילֵ֣ל" which translates to something like "morning star". A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that a proper translation is lucem ferre which is latin for "light-bearer" (Lucifer). Unfortunately for them, that fails too.

הֵילֵ֣ל alludes to Venus, in a scientific sense, which is one of the planets we can observe with the naked eye. It provides light as the "morning star".

Further, this verse is one of many Christians love to take out of context. This verse is a lamentation over the Prince of Babylon, the morning star of the world, as it were, who is about to fall from Heaven.

Let me make it even more clear - it is in reference to Nebuchadnezzar.

This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with anything I posted. You may know Hebrew better than I, but English? Not so much. Is it perhaps not your native tongue?

Perhaps the question should not be whether or not one lacks education or experience with a tongue and whether one is used to following the flow of a text. Below we have a, shortened, version of your last post before this one in which you attempted to enlighten me on making vs. creating. You can crow all the semantics you'd like, but it does not change my points on the Hebrew I spoke on in my last post.

<snip>Nope. You're COMPLETELY overlooking the difference between making / forming and "creating." You'll have a very difficult time reconciling the first 2 chapters of Genesis with that type of thinking! <snip>

Cheers,
L.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

My reasoning for Lucifer=satan:

original morning star is replaced with new star (Jesus) as head over all creation. Lucifer is fallen.

Numbers 24:17 There shall come a star out of Jacob
Matthew 2:2 We have seen His star in the east
Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;
Revelations 22:16-17 and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. And I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the Bride say, come

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

My reasoning for Lucifer=satan:

original morning star is replaced with new star (Jesus) as head over all creation. Lucifer is fallen.

Numbers 24:17 There shall come a star out of Jacob
Matthew 2:2 We have seen His star in the east
Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;
Revelations 22:16-17 and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. And I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the Bride say, come

My reasoning for Snow White = Jesus:

Both were followed around by short, hairy men
Both were betrayed
Both were "dead" until they "awoke"
Both overthrew the wicked aspects of their respective story

The myth of Lucifer is a fable, a fairy tale, developed just before the Christian Era in an attempt to reconcile evil. Lucifer is a fictious character, Satan is not a name. (It's a title - the angel "named" Satan (Adversary) is Samael, one of God's loyal servants throughout the "Old Testament" scriptures)

L.