Does God do Evil things?

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I do not claim wisdom, I claim knowledge. Please do not put words in my mouth. I do not appreciate it, educated readers do not appreciate it, and it errodes your position in a debate.

First off, I don't appreciate your demeaning attitude. Your trying to explain things that you claim above human words in human words so give it a rest. Any self-claimed theologian believing that God is evil is not worth listening to.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The myth of Lucifer is a fable, a fairy tale, developed just before the Christian Era in an attempt to reconcile evil. Lucifer is a fictious character, Satan is not a name. (It's a title - the angel "named" Satan (Adversary) is Samael, one of God's loyal servants throughout the "Old Testament" scriptures)

L.

Do tell, using scripture, how you come to this conclusion, or whatever proof you have to support your theory.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

First off, I don't appreciate your demeaning attitude. Your trying to explain things that you claim above human words in human words so give it a rest. Any self-claimed theologian believing that God is evil is not worth listening to.

Quite judgemental for someone so close-minded and petty, are you not?

L.

 

[KrimsonDraegon]

Do tell, using scripture, how you come to this conclusion, or whatever proof you have to support your theory.

I will gladly use just Scripture. First we will explore the story of Balaam.

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

The relevant words will be highlighted in the Hebrew as well for you. Please feel free to use any concordance you like, or ask a Jewish person for help. Askmoses.com - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info - Ask the Rabbi boasts a live chat in which you can ask a Rabbi personally to translate these words. You do not need to take my word for it.

וַיִּֽחַר־אַ֣ף אֱלֹהִים֮ כִּֽי־הֹולֵ֣ךְ הוּא֒ וַיִּתְיַצֵּ֞ב מַלְאַ֧ךְ יְהוָ֛ה בַּדֶּ֖רֶךְ לְשָׂטָ֣ן לֹ֑ו וְהוּא֙ רֹכֵ֣ב עַל־אֲתֹנֹ֔ו וּשְׁנֵ֥י נְעָרָ֖יו עִמֹּֽו׃

Hebrew is read from right-to-left. If you do not mind, I will follow this convention as I speak on the Hebrew present here.

The first word I have highlighted is the same as the first word I have highlighted in the English. It is read "Malach". This word is usually used when referencing an angel and implies subservience. Malach, which can also mean messenger, means angel and means one is beneath another authority.

The second & third word I have highlighted are the same as the second word I have highlighted in the English. It's actually part of a verb structure. It is read (all together) "l'satan lo". This verb structure means "provoke" or "oppose".

In this story, God is angry and thus created or called forth an angel to act as a Satan, or an adversary, to oppose Balaam.

For our second example we'll look at the story of Job. Here we'll see how Satan is used as a noun, instead of a verb, which is usually translated as "provocateur", or "adversary".

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

וַיְהִ֣י הַיֹּ֔ום וַיָּבֹ֙אוּ֙ בְּנֵ֣י הָאֱלֹהִ֔ים לְהִתְיַצֵּ֖ב עַל־יְהוָ֑ה וַיָּבֹ֥וא גַֽם־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן בְּתֹוכָֽם׃

Here this word is read "HaSatan". In Hebrew, the definitive article is "ha". "HaSatan" is "The Satan" or, more appropriately, "The Adversary". It is apparent that God created a "Satan", adversary, to act as provocateur that He might test Job. This angel is subservient to God and is not the powerful anti-God we see in Christianity.

Indeed - a belief in the Christian Satan is in direct opposition to God's proclamations that He is One, there are no others, that He alone creates peace and brings darkness, He alone creates light and works evil -

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I will move away from scripture to provide the link to the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia to, again, demonstrate that this is a well-known and understood myth. Satan and Lucifer are not the same beings. Satan is a job many angels hold, though one in particular has the job permanently, whereas Lucifer is a character in a fairy tale.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - LUCIFER

Hope this helps,
L.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

so now your equating Molech and satan with the Lord...I suggest you read some of the posts in this thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t5192945-5/#post35279889

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

btw, you still haven't said how you figger the OT Samuel is Lucifer esp. considering he was God's chose of priesthood that the people rejected in favor of a king. Are you suggesting that the law was also a satanic devise?
It appears to me that the king is what God rejected when He instituted Jesus in the heavenlies...again that comes back to Jesus replacing that which is the people's choose of wisdom over rule of God, which Jesus represents in it's entirety.
To prove your point you must show evil in Jesus. That would be taking a christian stand and not an agnostic one.

 

[Jeshu]

I think we misunderstand the situation just a little when we try and work it out only from our position - for we have existence in both good and bad - that is The Truth of our reality according to Genesis. So our lives are in His Good - but in the lie bad has the potential for much power as well killing life - God;s good - as Jesus shows us.


However God is not a God of Good and Bad - He made it all good for that is how He is - and He warned us not to drag wrong into Him - though we all know we did.

So the lesser light - satan giving light in the night time- brought this about through lies - to gain the position of The Greater light.

So I understand The truth a bit like this - if I love and do things good and right - I always get good returns even if it seems to go wrong - God's good remains - if I do wrong - things are not blessed like that whatsoever - and bad comes in and destroys the good - such is the truth of the lie!

So to walk on your feet is right and gets you somewhere - but start bouncing on you head to get anywhere and you'll be sore after only a little distance and collapse in a heap.

This is what has happened - the lie living with our truthful self distorts The Truth that is our life - and though the world is full of God's glory - Is 6 - in the lie we see nothing of this - the lies speaking stuff us up and so we loose good and right - and death sets in to get rid of us for we are no good - such is Satan - with death as our ending.

Revelation tells us The Great Persecution is not evil for God's people - hard but not evil - for The love of the truth alive within keeps us safe from evil - free from the destroying angel for God's good cannot be destroyed or killed - only waylaid for a bit - yet it always bounces back into place in The End. Such is His loving truth - unbeatable.


Just my two bobs worth

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Start backing what your saying with scripture references in those spellings because no matter how moronic you want to make me out to be you still are saying NOTHING.


your jewishness has nothing to do with Christ's interpretations

 

[razeontherock]

Or does that maybe make him ... satan? [/Church lady]

 

[jonathonbyrd]

So much arrogance and pride in this post. I think that to define this question we need to break down the attributes of God and properly define the words that are asked.

First, let us set aside our differences and each of us repent.

Next, God tells us that He created everything and sustains it. Including His Word. Even the most poorly translated Bible, God can make it sing with His Truth. Instead of bringing into the discussion our own expectations, our own wills and our own knowledge, allow us to use scripture to define scripture.

@krimsondraegon, would you mind break down Isaiah 45:7 from the original Hebrew writings, so that we can better understand exactly what it is that God says he creates.

Now let us define some attributes of God that we need to all make sure that we understand.

1. God is Sovereign
2. God is ultimately in control of everything, meaning that He doesn't just let us do things our way, but is specifically and actively controlling everything.
3. God is the Creator
4. God is the Judge
5. Everything about God is perfect
6. God is Love
7. God is Jealous

Allow me to define the question again: Does God do Evil Things?
Let's look at the worldly definition of "Evil":

adj., e·vil·er, e·vil·est.
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
n.
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
An evil force, power, or personification.
Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice

I'm just going to break down what we know about God and his nature.

1. God is incapable of sin, sin is non-conformity to who he is. He cannot be anybody but himself.
2. God is not wicked, He hates wickedness. Wickedness as defined by the world is to be or do something immorally wrong, wickedness is not justice.


I would say that according to our worldly definition, God cannot do evil, but at the same time can and does do evil. This is because our definition of evil covers more then what God is speaking of in Isaiah 45.

In conclusion to my breakdown:

1. God does not do what is considered morally bad or wrong. He performs justice, which is expected of Him.
2. God does cause ruin, injury, pain and harm.
3. God does cause future misfortune.
4. God is not bad or blameworthy
5. God's qualities are not wicked and He is not wicked
6. God causes harm, misfortune and destruction
7. God is a source of causing suffering, injury and destruction.

 

[razeontherock]

I would say English dictionaries are of little help here. Hebrew Bible, Is 45:7

Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

No different than our English translation. (Kinda surprising there, heh)

However, the word for "create" is the same in both instances, while "forms" is different, and "makes" is different yet again! Which is what I said when the point was raised. Fact is neither pride nor arrogance; just fact. This is the same understanding that reconciles the first few chapters of Genesis, that unbelievers love to make fools of themselves over, claiming it's inconsistent.

 

[razeontherock]

You're either severly lacking in mental ability, linguistic ability, or - sadly, both. I do not make spelling errors.

Stop, you're killing me here



No but really, STOP. Your confessed sins of pride and arrogance are merely humorous, but you need to realize you're addressing someone for whom Christ shed His blood and died.




And yet you feel the need to belittle her. Please don't do that again! It very much seems that you add to your sins misogyny.



Does breaking forum rules make you a big man? She happens to be a dear Sister in the Lord, who is not only VERY Spiritually intelligent, but has a sensitivity to the Lord that is simply exquisite. And you happen to be using words that aren't English. That has nothing at all to do with her abilities, or anyone else's, other than your own inability to make your point. Don't take that out on her!

If you have anything constructive to contribute, you should be surprised anyone would be willing to hear you until you can learn to

Ecc 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil."

 

[Jeshu]

Stop, you're killing me here



No but really, STOP. Your confessed sins of pride and arrogance are merely humorous, but you need to realize you're addressing someone for whom Christ shed His blood and died.




And yet you feel the need to belittle her. Please don't do that again! It very much seems that you add to your sins misogyny.



Does breaking forum rules make you a big man? She happens to be a dear Sister in the Lord, who is not only VERY Spiritually intelligent, but has a sensitivity to the Lord that is simply exquisite. And you happen to be using words that aren't English. That has nothing at all to do with her abilities, or anyone else's, other than your own inability to make your point. Don't take that out on her!

If you have anything constructive to contribute, you should be surprised anyone would be willing to hear you until you can learn to

Ecc 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil."

I want to second what Ray says!

I have hated the direction of this debate - it is terrible and it makes me shudder thinking about how our loving Father in Heaven is feeling about this all!

How hurt will He be when we don't love nor respect one another?

Please lets behave in the bond of love even if we lack insights into His Truth - what we do know that about our God is that He wants us to love each other - so please lets not behave like wild beasts and at least do that.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Or does that maybe make him ... satan? [/Church lady]

When things are taken to the spiritual that doesn't disqualify or disallow the truth of things happening in the material/physical. The bible does describe Lucifer/satan. Christ as the risen Lord will return as the warrior to deal with the wicked. God does break a person and bring them to their knees, but to equate Him to evil even by implying Him in a thread such as this is wrongly accusing Him while subtracting from the bible. Satan doesn't add to the bible, he subtracts. The reason that lucifer/satan is readable in the bible is to understand the battle God has with our wickedness. It's not a battle against parts of Him that we have to overcome, it's a reliance on ourselves, which includes our good. The tree of knowledge isn't a part of the New Jerusalem, only the tree of life is.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT​

ok, that is enough. Closing this for staff review

Edit ro say that this thread will be staying closed. ​