Does God choose every person that will follow Him?

[Kyle16]

If yes, why would he create some human just to let them parish in Hell. Let's try and focus mostly on the doctrine of Election.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Yes, but He did not create people destined for eternal death, for God is good. It's a Biblical paradox much higher than our ability to reason.

Holy Scripture reveals that salvation is entirely by God, but our damnation is entirely our own fault. Attempts have been made reconcile these truths, but it's better to trust God's Word and His good promise.

 

[Dave-W]

There is a difference between knowing and choosing. We make our own choices. God in His fore-knowledge knows what decision we will make. That is NOT Him choosing.

The problem with both Calvinism and Arminianism in this question is they both limit God to being subject to our flow of time, and to our understanding of logic.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There is a difference between knowing and choosing. We make our own choices. God in His fore-knowledge knows what decision we will make. That is NOT Him choosing.

The problem with both Calvinism and Arminianism in this question is they both limit God to being subject to our flow of time, and to our understanding of logic.

They limit God in their denying Him to be One that rewards.

 

[Ken Rank]

There is a difference between knowing and choosing. We make our own choices. God in His fore-knowledge knows what decision we will make. That is NOT Him choosing.

The problem with both Calvinism and Arminianism in this question is they both limit God to being subject to our flow of time, and to our understanding of logic.

My answer would be similar... God knows who will choose Him because He exists outside of time and knows the end from the beginning. He actually DRAWS a man unto Himself (John 6:44) but we still have to choose (Deuteronomy 30:19). I disagree (respectfully) with @Daniel9v9 as I think we can comprehend this one for the reason I just shared. All of the things that mark time, the rotation of the earth (a day) the orbit of the moon (a month) and orbit of the earth around the sun (a year) and all the division we can make between them (hours, minutes, seconds) are all things God created... but He existed BEFORE that. He is outside of time and therefore knows who will and will not choose Him. We are, from THAT perspective, predestined but not in the sense of some being create to live and some to be tortured for eternity for nothing within their power... but simply because He foreknows as He exists beyond time.

 

[Daniel9v9]

My answer would be similar... God knows who will choose Him because He exists outside of time and knows the end from the beginning. He actually DRAWS a man unto Himself (John 6:44) but we still have to choose (Deuteronomy 30:19). I disagree (respectfully) with @Daniel9v9 as I think we can comprehend this one for the reason I just shared. All of the things that mark time, the rotation of the earth (a day) the orbit of the moon (a month) and orbit of the earth around the sun (a year) and all the division we can make between them (hours, minutes, seconds) are all things God created... but He existed BEFORE that. He is outside of time and therefore knows who will and will not choose Him. We are, from THAT perspective, predestined but not in the sense of some being create to live and some to be tortured for eternity for nothing within their power... but simply because He foreknows as He exists beyond time.

Many in our day hold to the idea of "choosing God", but I think this is a very dangerous belief - it's even something that has been rejected as a heresy by the early church, but somehow it's crept back in.
Perhaps seemingly harmless, but here are some implications of "choosing God":
1. We are dead in sin and unable to work or approach any spiritual thing by our own nature or strength. Like a dead thing we can't choose or work. Certainly not to resurrect ourselves.
2. God reveals Himself to us, and as you say, draws us to Him. We can only know about God through His deliberate self-revelation.
3. Only God alone works salvation and saves us. We don't save ourselves. Salvation is entirely a gift from God.

If we could choose, or even say "yes" to God, that means that Jesus works 99% of the salvation and we do 1% by saying "yes" to salvation. This then leads to the 1% being the ultimate deciding factor that outweighs Christ's works and merits - this is far from what Scripture teaches. This is entering Semipalagian realms, the heresy mentioned.

Put short, we don't first love God, but God first loved us. 1 John 4:19

The sum of this problem is called Crux Theologorum - the 'cross of the theologian' - why God saves some and not others (or why He saves anyone)

This lays it out well:
http://www.stpaulslutheranchurch.net/cruxtheologorum.html

 

[JoeP222w]

To answer the original question, yes.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Romans 9:15-23 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[JoeP222w]

Yes, but He did not create people destined for eternal death, for God is good.

How do you exegete Romans 9:21-23?

 

[Ken Rank]

Many in our day hold to the idea of "choosing God", but I think this is a very dangerous belief - it's even something that has been rejected as a heresy by the early church, but somehow it's crept back in.
Perhaps seemingly harmless, but here are some implications of "choosing God":
1. We are dead in sin and unable to work or approach any spiritual thing by our own nature or strength. Like a dead thing we can't choose or work. Certainly not to resurrect ourselves.
2. God reveals Himself to us, and as you say, draws us to Him. We can only know about God through His deliberate self-revelation.
3. Only God alone works salvation and saves us. We don't save ourselves. Salvation is entirely a gift from God.

If we could choose, or even say "yes" to God, that means that Jesus works 99% of the salvation and we do 1% by saying "yes" to salvation. This then leads to the 1% being the ultimate deciding factor that outweighs Christ's works and merits - this is far from what Scripture teaches. This is entering Semipalagian realms, the heresy mentioned.

Put short, we don't first love God, but God first loved us. 1 John 4:19

The sum of this problem is called Crux Theologorum - the 'cross of the theologian' - why God saves some and not others (or why He saves anyone)

This lays it out well:
http://www.stpaulslutheranchurch.net/cruxtheologorum.html

The message from Yeshua was repent (Matthew 4:17) and from Peter (Acts 2:38) which means we have to turn away from sin and turn to God and His ways... for the remission of sins. If you desire to believe that we play no part in this, go ahead. But, while God alone does the saving, God expects action from us. And seeing we are not saved yet (we still decay and die, get disease, are exposed to sin and other unrighteousness, war, famine, etc.) then we do apparently have some role to play.

 

[JoeP222w]

We make our own choices.

And in our own choices, apart from the grace of God, no one will choose God.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

 

[Dave-W]

And in our own choices, apart from the grace of God, no one will choose God.

Except for the fact that:

Romans 12:3b God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

So everyone has that grace available when the Father draws us.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Many in our day hold to the idea of "choosing God", but I think this is a very dangerous belief - it's even something that has been rejected as a heresy by the early church, but somehow it's crept back in.
Perhaps seemingly harmless, but here are some implications of "choosing God":
1. We are dead in sin and unable to work or approach any spiritual thing by our own nature or strength. Like a dead thing we can't choose or work. Certainly not to resurrect ourselves.
2. God reveals Himself to us, and as you say, draws us to Him. We can only know about God through His deliberate self-revelation.
3. Only God alone works salvation and saves us. We don't save ourselves. Salvation is entirely a gift from God.

If we could choose, or even say "yes" to God, that means that Jesus works 99% of the salvation and we do 1% by saying "yes" to salvation. This then leads to the 1% being the ultimate deciding factor that outweighs Christ's works and merits - this is far from what Scripture teaches. This is entering Semipalagian realms, the heresy mentioned.

Put short, we don't first love God, but God first loved us. 1 John 4:19

The sum of this problem is called Crux Theologorum - the 'cross of the theologian' - why God saves some and not others (or why He saves anyone)

This lays it out well:
http://www.stpaulslutheranchurch.net/cruxtheologorum.html

Nice post!

 

[98cwitr]

If yes, why would he create some human just to let them parish in Hell. Let's try and focus mostly on the doctrine of Election.

I believe that God, being Omniscient, knows before any of us were ever created whether or not any of us where going to go to heaven or hell. Assume though you were going to go to Hell...what does the Bible say about why you were created:

Romans 9:22-23 New International Version (NIV)

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

I think people, even the damned, are created to simply bring about God's Will. It's really that simple.

 

[98cwitr]

My answer would be similar... God knows who will choose Him because He exists outside of time and knows the end from the beginning. He actually DRAWS a man unto Himself (John 6:44) but we still have to choose (Deuteronomy 30:19). I disagree (respectfully) with @Daniel9v9 as I think we can comprehend this one for the reason I just shared. All of the things that mark time, the rotation of the earth (a day) the orbit of the moon (a month) and orbit of the earth around the sun (a year) and all the division we can make between them (hours, minutes, seconds) are all things God created... but He existed BEFORE that. He is outside of time and therefore knows who will and will not choose Him. We are, from THAT perspective, predestined but not in the sense of some being create to live and some to be tortured for eternity for nothing within their power... but simply because He foreknows as He exists beyond time.

Wasn't that Moses speaking to the Israelites about obeying the Mitzvot? Specifically, obeying or not obeying God's Law given to Moses?

 

[Thursday]

If yes, why would he create some human just to let them parish in Hell. Let's try and focus mostly on the doctrine of Election.

God gives us all sufficient grace for salvation. It is not his fault if we reject his grace.

 

[JoeP222w]

Except for the fact that:

Romans 12:3b God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

So everyone has that grace available when the Father draws us.

God has done it, not the individual. It is not a available grace, it is actual, effectual grace. If God grants grace, it does not fail.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Wasn't that Moses speaking to the Israelites about obeying the Mitzvot? Specifically, obeying or not obeying God's Law given to Moses?

The verse that was brought up Romans 12:3, is that an argument for Previent Grace, (or whatever they call it)

 

[~Anastasia~]

If yes, why would he create some human just to let them parish in Hell. Let's try and focus mostly on the doctrine of Election.

I think the answer depends on what you mean by the question.

Does God choose to create these people over here, and save them, and create those people over there, with the intent of simply burning them alive forever?

No, I do not believe that.

Does God choose and desire to save persons?

Yes, I believe He does.

Does God make everything necessary for the salvation and healing of every person available? (Meaning is the atonement effective and available for all persons, does God call/draw all men to some degree, does God make faith available to all?)

I'm sure you'll get disagreement here, but I would say that yes, He does. And furthermore, I would say that not only that, but that He desires every person's salvation.

Do we have the ability/free will to reject God?

I believe we do, and not only before we come to know Him, but I don't think that free will is removed from us during this lifetime, so that we could, if we so chose, decide to follow Him, but later change our minds and reject Him (though deciding to do so is incomprehensible to me). Again, I know that some are taught otherwise.

Does God see/know the end of each person, before any of their days begin (in our time-locked perspective)?

I believe He does.

 

[Ken Rank]

Wasn't that Moses speaking to the Israelites about obeying the Mitzvot? Specifically, obeying or not obeying God's Law given to Moses?

Yes, however, the choice included life or death and I used it only to show choice. There are others I can use, many of them, but my point was simply to show both predestination and free will exist in Scripture. To choose one over the other, in some cases pitting one against the other, is unprofitable.

 

[98cwitr]

The verse that was brought up Romans 12:3, is that an argument for Previent Grace, (or whatever they call it)

Oh sorry, I was more pointing at Deu. 30:19 in Kent's post.