Does God call and then give us a choice to respond to his call?

[RobertZ]

The call of god doesn't necessarily happen, its not like a feeling you get when he calls, there is no ring, no mail, no ring tone, If there is a CALL, i think its something you just know you have to do .

Like a criminal who decides Jail isent tha ticket, and he changes his life... that was the call

The call absolutely does happen but I believe its in the manner that you describe as its not necessarily a shout or a special feeling that a person might expect to receive.

 

[Hammster]

Oh okay are you saying that God calls the non elect the same way that he calls the Elect? According to calvinism there are two different calls that go out but only one of those calls result in salvation so am I right or wrong?

According to Scripture there are two calls. A general call, in which the Gospel is proclaimed, is the call rejected by the non-elect. The effective call, because of regeneration, is always heeded by the elect.

Forum Runner goes to 11.

 

[faceofbear]

Part One:
YouTube - 1/2 If Christ Died For All, What Then?

Part Two:
YouTube - 2/2 If Christ Died For All, What Then?

 

[RobertZ]

According to Scripture there are two calls. A general call, in which the Gospel is proclaimed, is the call rejected by the non-elect. The effective call, because of regeneration, is always heeded by the elect.

Forum Runner goes to 11.

Then however we look at it at the end of the day its God whom decides who is saved.

 

[Skala]

. I know God is all knowing. He knows a persons true heart and knows if a person would accept him and love him with his/her everything, or if he/she would never fully love Jesus more than their sinful ways.

With all due respect I do not believe this is scriptural. All men in their fallen nature have wicked, evil hearts, and are not inclined towards the thrice holy God in the least sense. (They seek God about as much as a criminal seeks a police officer)

So there's no possible way God could know "who has good enough hearts", because the grand total of those people is...zero.

The only way a heart is good is if God makes it good. "I will put a new heart within you..." (Ezek 24:26-27)

If the old heart was good enough then God wouldn't need to replace it

@ Coconut Princess:

Imagine this scenario:

You are the king of a kingdom, and you were away from your castle for a few days. When you come home you discover that a gang of bandits has infiltrated your castle, raped and murdered your wife, and tortured and murdered your son.

You eventually capture the gang of criminals. You give them the death sentence, because it's what their crimes deserve.

However, you decide to show that you are not only a just king, but a merciful one as well. You pardon one of the criminals, but leave the rest of the criminals to their just condemnation.

The criminal you pardoned is eternally grateful and heartbroken.

The citizens of the kingdom are amazed at your clemency, and not a single person asks the King: "Why did you pardon one of them but not all of them?" Not a single person asks: "Are you not merciful enough to pardon them all? Why only one of them?"

No, they all realize that even pardoning one of them is exceedingly merciful. In fact, they realize that had the King pardoned none of them, he would be right, just, and fair to not do so.

The criminals that were not pardoned do not receive death for their lack of being pardoned, but rather, for their crimes. The King's non-choice of them has nothing to do with their condemnation.

Get what I'm saying?

If that hits home hard, then add on top of that this bold declaration of Scripture:


Rom 9:15-23
(15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
(17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
(18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
(20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
(21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
(22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
(23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

Long story short, God's mercy is only properly glorified if it is contrasted with his justice and wrath against sin. And vice versa.

God desires both his wrath and his mercy to be glorified. He desires to make his power known. Thus the importance of the doctrine of hell and condemnation, as scary as they are!

 

[Hammster]

Then however we look at it at the end of the day its God whom decides who is saved.

A slight distinction. God decides whom He will save. But don't forget that all who are willing may come.

Forum Runner goes to 11.

 

[Skala]

A slight distinction. God decides whom He will save. But don't forget that all who are willing may come.

They're only willing in the first place because God has worked on their hearts to make them willing, as nobody by nature is willing

This implies that God chose who to save, by choosing whose hearts to graciously work on.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

He knows a persons true heart and knows if a person would accept him and love him with his/her everything, or if he/she would never fully love Jesus more than their sinful ways.

Hi hunny,

A person cannot accept Him and love Him, they are dead in sin. The only way a person can accept and love Him is if God enables them to.

Election (God choosing who will get saved) is in the Bible, but the argument is, does He choose based only on His will and own purpose, or does He know who would choose Him if they could and then choose.

The thing is, knowing who would choose Him isn't in scripture.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

With all due respect I do not believe this is scriptural. All men in their fallen nature have wicked, evil hearts, and are not inclined towards the thrice holy God in the least sense. (They seek God about as much as a criminal seeks a police officer)

So there's no possible way God could know "who has good enough hearts", because the grand total of those people is...zero.

The only way a heart is good is if God makes it good. "I will put a new heart within you..." (Ezek 24:26-27)

If the old heart was good enough then God wouldn't need to replace it

@ Coconut Princess:

Imagine this scenario:

You are the king of a kingdom, and you were away from your castle for a few days. When you come home you discover that a gang of bandits has infiltrated your castle, raped and murdered your wife, and tortured and murdered your son.

You eventually capture the gang of criminals. You give them the death sentence, because it's what their crimes deserve.

However, you decide to show that you are not only a just king, but a merciful one as well. You pardon one of the criminals, but leave the rest of the criminals to their just condemnation.

The criminal you pardoned is eternally grateful and heartbroken.

The citizens of the kingdom are amazed at your clemency, and not a single person asks the King: "Why did you pardon one of them but not all of them?" Not a single person asks: "Are you not merciful enough to pardon them all? Why only one of them?"

No, they all realize that even pardoning one of them is exceedingly merciful. In fact, they realize that had the King pardoned none of them, he would be right, just, and fair to not do so.

The criminals that were not pardoned do not receive death for their lack of being pardoned, but rather, for their crimes. The King's non-choice of them has nothing to do with their condemnation.

Get what I'm saying?

If that hits home hard, then add on top of that this bold declaration of Scripture:


Rom 9:15-23
(15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
(17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
(18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
(20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
(21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
(22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
(23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

Long story short, God's mercy is only properly glorified if it is contrasted with his justice and wrath against sin. And vice versa.

God desires both his wrath and his mercy to be glorified. He desires to make his power known. Thus the importance of the doctrine of hell and condemnation, as scary as they are!

I totall get what you're saying BUT if its our sin (crimes) that give us eternal punishment, then how does that fit with the scripture I quoted? Can you explain that scripture?

 

[Skala]

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

CP, all men with unregenerate hearts (which all men have by nature) will refuse to love the truth and be saved Election does not eliminate the idea of choice. All men choose what they desire. And all men by nature choose to rebel against God, and they refuse His truth, because they do not desire it.

They cannot understand the spiritual things of God. They have stony hearts. They are hostile to God. Etc.

All men have wills, but their wills were affected by the fall just like everything else. So in a sense there's no such thing as "free" will, but a will that is enslaved to sin. Thus it is perfectly accurate to say that a man is unwilling to repent, and that he refuses to repent, etc.

This is in perfect accord with the "Calvinistic" view of election

PS. Praise God for making us willing!

 

[CoconutPrincess]

Part One:
YouTube - 1/2 If Christ Died For All, What Then?

Part Two:
YouTube - 2/2 If Christ Died For All, What Then?

Thank you for these. I just finished listening to both. He makes alot of sense and I can see his 14 points of what is wrong with universal atonement.

I still don't know... there are other scriptures like, for God so loved the WORLD, willing that NONE should perish... how do those scriptures fit in?

 

[RobertZ]

A slight distinction. God decides whom He will save. But don't forget that all who are willing may come.

Forum Runner goes to 11.

They are only willing IF God makes them willing.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

CP, all men with unregenerate hearts (which all men have by nature) will refuse to love the truth and be saved Election does not eliminate the idea of choice. All men choose what they desire. And all men by nature choose to rebel against God, and they refuse His truth, because they do not desire it.

They cannot understand the spiritual things of God. They have stony hearts. They are hostile to God. Etc.

All men have wills, but their wills were affected by the fall just like everything else. So in a sense there's no such thing as "free" will, but a will that is enslaved to sin. Thus it is perfectly accurate to say that a man is unwilling to repent, and that he refuses to repent, etc.

This is in perfect accord with the "Calvinistic" view of election

PS. Praise God for making us willing!

Okay, I see

Why do we pray for others to be saved, our loved ones, our friends? What's the point? And why bother preaching the gospel? What if my child is not chosen to be saved... Also, why did He choose me? I'm nothing special and secondly, can someone wan to be saved but not be chosen? I'm guessing "no" because if they have the desire they must be elect because an unsaved person does not desire God at all.

 

[RobertZ]

Thank you for these. I just finished listening to both. He makes alot of sense and I can see his 14 points of what is wrong with universal atonement.

I still don't know... there are other scriptures like, for God so loved the WORLD, willing that NONE should perish... how do those scriptures fit in?

Apparently the World doesnt mean literally the "WHOLE WORLD" as we humans like to imagine that it means.

And willing that NONE should perish is pointed at a specific group "THE ELECT" and not everyone.

 

[RobertZ]

They're only willing in the first place because God has worked on their hearts to make them willing, as nobody by nature is willing

This implies that God chose who to save, by choosing whose hearts to graciously work on.

Exactly.

 

[CoconutPrincess]

Apparently the World doesnt mean literally the "WHOLE WORLD" as we humans like to imagine that it means.

And willing that NONE should perish is pointed at a specific group "THE ELECT" and not everyone.

Perhaps it means, the people of this world whom I've chosen? But at first glance, that is not what you see.

I never thought of that before. That the "none" is referring to His elect only.

 

[RobertZ]

The citizens of the kingdom are amazed at your clemency, and not a single person asks the King: "Why did you pardon one of them but not all of them?" Not a single person asks: "Are you not merciful enough to pardon them all? Why only one of them?"

I dont know about that, im sure at least 1 person would want to know why 1 was pardoned and not the rest.

I think I can agree with your analogy here as its good, I just dont believe that their wouldnt be at least one person who would question it.

 

[RobertZ]

I just thought about something else, what about God not being a respecter of persons?

 

[CoconutPrincess]

I just thought about something else, what about God not being a respecter of persons?

Good point... maybe in the context of, he does not favor one of His own over another of His own.

 

[Hammster]

They are only willing IF God makes them willing.

True. But they could be willing if they desired. It's their sin that makes them unwilling.

Forum Runner goes to 11.