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Featured Does God Accept Imperfect Obedience?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by jimmyjimmy, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Okay, for clarification. Explain Justification, not Sanctification for me?
     
  2. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    [QUOTE="EmSw, post: [/quote][/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE="Dartman, post: [/QUOTE]

    Quit it! You are splitting hairs and picking fights.
    Where is your disagreement except in wanting to be the one who gets it right.
    Did I wrongly supposed this was a Christian forum?[/QUOTE]

    Sorry if I offended you. But this is also a forum to debate. And as long as we debate with manners, its okay to debate.
     
  3. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Do you know what a straw man is?

    Believe me, predestination is the farthest thing from me. You depend upon predestination for everything you believe.

    I see you didn't comment on Paul's boasting either.
     
  4. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    First, it would be helpful if you would include in your post, at least a partial quote, to clarify the points with which you disagree.
    Second, an important part of the Christian's responsibility is to "handle appropriately" differences of doctrine;

    Acts 19:6-8 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve. 8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  5. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Perspective.

    Justification relates to our position with Jehovah/YHVH, our God, and Christ's God.

    Through Christ's death, as the perfect sacrifice, any BELIEVER can be Justified in Jehovah's sight, which amounts to our name being "written in the book of life" (Ex 32:31,32, Phil 4:3, Rev 3:5, Rev 13:8, Rev 17:8, Rev 20:12, Rev 20:15, Rev 21:27, Rev 22:19)

    When we sin, and do not repent, our name is "blotted out of the book of life" (Rev 3:5), we are no longer justified (Heb 10:26,27); UNTIL we repent, and confess our sins in prayer;
    1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


    Sanctification relates to a position that is SET APART from the world, and from sin, FOR Jehovah/YHVH;
    2 Cor 6:17-18 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  6. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is a strawman! I depend upon God for everything!
    No need!
     
  7. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I asked for clarification on Justification, so that I understand you. But you keep bringing up sanctification.

    So I will comment on what you wrote here. By saying that a person justification is maintain by their "DOING", works, obedience, or repentance. Their justification does not depend on Christ and what he has accomplished for them. But on what we do! This is "EARNING by MAINTAINING" through what we do! This is why I said before that you did not understand Paul, and you believe in maintaining a person's justification by "DOING", "EARNING" by their doing. Do you understand now.

    Sanctification is useless without a solid foundation. Sanctification always flows from our Justification in Christ. The only place a believer can build piety toward God is on Christ and His works that do save, and did save the believer, as Promised in the Gospel.
     
  8. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Your statement is inaccurate.
    The problem stems from the way you phrased your response.
    You are attempting to make the discussion artificially restricted to two options, Christ's works OR our works .... when the Scriptures explain BOTH are required.
    So, justification DOES depend on Christ's work .... AND on our works!
    No.
    There is NO "earning" involved.
    Period.
    Leave the word "earning" out of the equation totally, and you will be closer to understanding the truth.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  9. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There are 1,050 laws in the New Covenant, so it is just as much a covenant of works as the Mosaic Covenant, while according to Psalms 119:29, David ask God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Covenant is just as much a covenant of grace as the New Covenant. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith was one of the weightier matters of the Law, so faith is just as important in the OT and it is in the NT. God's has always been a God of grace who showed His grace to people in both the OT and NT, so grace and faith and not unique to the NT.

    For example, in Genesis 6:8-9, it says that Moses found grace in the eyes of God, so God showed His grace to him by teaching him how to rightly live, and there is much evidence of God's Laws being in place throughout Genesis prior to when it was given at Sinai. It also says that Noah was a righteous man, and this was no accident, but rather he was righteous because through God's grace to him, he responded in faith by living in obedience to God's commands.

    There is no condition found anywhere in the Bible that says anything like that if the Law is perfectly obeyed that it will be fulfilled and done away with. Jesus summarized the Law as being God's instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so saying that Jesus obeying the Law so that we don't have to is like saying that he loved God and our neighbor so that we don't have to, but rather he did so in part so that we would have an example to follow, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).
     
  10. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Unfortunately, you've made Him the God of predestination. God can't do anything without predestining it; He has limited Himself. You can't do anything without God predestining it. Your course has been set, and you can only follow it. And what is amazing, is that you don't where you fall within His predestination.

    VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.


    VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

    Westminster Confession of Faith

    You have no idea where you fall within these decrees of God. You have no idea whether your calling was effectual or general. I'm sure Judas thought his calling was 'effectual'. Besides, God's predestination changes over time for people. Weren't you predestined to be a child of wrath? Weren't you predestined to be without Christ and without hope in this world? What kind of assurance do you have with these changing decrees?

    It matters not if you believe you have been called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved. Your belief comes from a heart that is deceitful, and as filthy rags. You are playing the lottery with God's predestination. Hopefully, you are one of the lucky ones. I can see God picking petals off a flower and saying, 'I love him, I love him not.....'.

    And btw, your response to this post has already been predestined. So what you say is not from your own lips, but you will say what has been decreed for you.

    And of course, you do not want to comment on Paul's boasting. Paul shoots his own foot when he says those boast who are justified by works, and yet boasts of his own work.
     
  11. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    God has always been righteous, so there has likewise always existed a way to act in accordance with God's righteousness, and this way existed before God made any covenants with man, so it is not dependant on any particular covenant. In other words, the way to practice righteousness did not change when the Mosaic Law was given, but rather the Law revealed what has always been and will always been the way to practice righteousness. So there is a distinction between a set of instructions for how to reflect God's righteousness and a covenant agreement to abide by those instructions. This means that anyone, regardless of which covenant they are under, if any, who wants to find out how to practice righteousness can look it up by reading the Mosaic Law, but as part of the New Covenant, we are still told to practice righteousness (1 John 3:10). So I contend that if God's instructions for how to reflect His righteousness are temporary, then God's righteousness is also temporary, but a covenant agreement to abide by those instructions can be temporary.

    While the Law instructs us how to practice righteousness, it does not instruct us how to become righteous. For example, the Law reveals that helping the poor is a way to reflect God's righteousness to the word, but no amount of helping the poor will cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous. In Psalms 19:7, it says that God's Law is perfect, so the Law instructs us how to be perfect, but does not make us perfect because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by faith, and by the same faith we are required to be careful to live in obedience to all of God's commands. In other words, we have been declared righteous by grace through faith, so we are therefore required by the same grace through the same faith to reflect God's righteousness to the world.

    While Hebrews 8:6-9 say that the New Covenant has a superior mediator and is based on better promises, it does not say that it is based upon better laws. While the Old Covenant was not faultless, it does not say that the fault was with God's righteous standard or with His instructions for how to live according to it, but rather it says that God found fault with the people for breaking His covenant because of the hardness of their hearts. So it was necessary for God to make a New Covenant where he would take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to cause us to obey His Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), where he would put His Law in our minds and write it on our hearts so that we will obey it (Jeremiah 31:33).

    They key issue between the covenant is the mediator. In Genesis 19:5, God wanted a covenant where the people would hear His voice and obey His commands, which the people originally agreed to, but upon hearing God's voice, the people got cold feet and wanted God to speak to Moses and where they would listen to Moses instead (Exodus 20:19), so it became necessary for Moses to write down God's instructions for how to walk in His ways in lieu of the people being guided by God's voice in how to do this (Deuteronomy 5:22-33). The Mosaic Covenant is often spoken of as a marriage covenant, so this is exactly like a man proposing to his girlfriend and her agreeing, but upon their wedding day she decided she only wanted to interact with her husband through a mediator, which was less than ideal for the intimacy that God desired to have with His people, but which God nevertheless agreed to in place of what the covenant was originally intended to be. While Moses was a great man, he could not be everywhere, and this quickly led to problems that would not have occurred if the people had been listening to God's voice.

    In spite of the people agreeing to do everything Moses said, they did not even do that much, and it got so bad that God eventually wrote a certificate of divorce to the northern kingdom of Israel because of her adultery (Jeremiah 3:1-14). However, in spite of all of this God continued to call for Israel to return to him, which was rather problematic because according to Deuteronomy 24:1-4, a woman who had been divorced who had been with another man was not permitted to return to her first husband. The only way for a woman to be released from her adultery would be if her first husband died, which means that God would have to die in order for Israel to return and become married to Him, so it was a great mystery how God would accomplish this. This is also what is being talked about in Romans 7:1-4, where we have died to the law of our husband through the death of Christ, so that we may be free to belong to another, to him who has been raise from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

    So the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant are all about God's marriage, divorce, and remarriage to Israel, with the New Covenant being what the Mosaic Covenant was originally intended to be, where no longer would man teach man how to serve God, but where we would all have this relationship with God where He would teach us how to walk in His ways (Jeremiah 31:34).
     
  12. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hi Dartman, perspective requested, do you believe that Jesus Christ is God (like His Father and the HS are), or do you believe He is a created being, or a lesser "deity" of some sort of another?

    Also, if you don't mind, here are a couple of other questions that I have about your post. You said:

    So God, with daisy in hand, watches us from on high saying, "I love them. I love them not. I love them. I love them not........"? ;)

    Is that how things worked in your family, with your earthly parents? Was/is their love for you performance based (like you're saying that God's "love" is for us), or did/do they love you simply because you're their son, come what may?

    Do you still love your kids, even when they mess up/fail to obey your every word to them, or do they have to "earn" your love to deserve it/for it to continue?

    Also, have you ever wondered why God describes the first two "ingredients" (so to speak) of love as 1. patience and 2. kindness .. 1 Corinthians 13:4? If God's love for us, His children in Christ, is based upon our performance/obedience, what need/purpose is there for either patience OR kindness :scratch:

    Back to your post, while I can see how a case could be made for losing one's salvation based upon Revelation 3:5/Hebrews 10:26-27, they say nothing about getting it back, do they? (1 John 1 says nothing about either). If fact, Hebrews 10 says quite the opposite, doesn't it :preach:

    Hebrews 10
    26 If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

    Is that how you would describe a true Christian, as someone who, "goes on sinning willfully"? Or is that, perhaps, the description of someone who "claims" to have become a Christian at some point in their lives, but never did?

    This is the same thing that the principle passage (used by those who teach that salvation can be lost) says, isn't it?

    Hebrews 6
    4 In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

    That's the problem with these two passages (for those who believe they teach that salvation can be lost), they say way too much, don't they?

    The real question is, do either of these passages actually teach that salvation can be lost, or are they referring to people who, while they may have come 'close' to being saved*, never actually were?

    *(They were 1. part of the visible church 2. had heard/seen all the information/evidence needed to understand the Christian faith/their need for a Savior, but 3. never truly believed)

    While the true nature of the people being addressed in the passages above remains a bit of a mystery, one thing is made perfectly clear, if someone (who is truly saved) can lose their salvation, they will NEVER get it back!!

    Yours and His,
    David

    Hebrews 7
    25 He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  13. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    John 20:17 ... go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
    I believe this Scripture will be allowed by the moderators, but a more detailed explanation/discussion will have to be conducted some other way.
    1) God's position is SIMILAR to parents, but not identical for many reasons, including His perfect knowledge of our heart, both current and future, and His right to destroy any of His creatures/vessels.
    2) Even parents are commanded to show their love for their children in a VERY conditional sense! Reward positive behavior, and chasten negative behavior, and thus "train up the child in the way he should go".

    I didn't ever say "solely upon performance". But, it is VERY clear performance is critical;
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Your assessment of 1 John 1 is in direct contradiction of the text! And, with the statement made in 1 John 1, and other texts, your attempt to discredit Rev 3:5 and Heb 10:26-27 is exposed.

    This isn't "opposite"! It is merely explaining a different aspect of the same truth. When someone is continuing to "sin willfully", they are NOT under the sacrifice for sins ...... UNTIL they confess, and repent!
    [/quote]
     
  14. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Great verse, but it doesn't answer the question I asked you.

    GT is specifically for Nicene Creed based beliefs. The problem is this, the "perspective" you take, that Jesus is not God, affects/colors everything else you believe, so much so that the rest of what you have to say becomes all but moot (because you 1. have to hide what you really believe and 2. we end up arguing in vain against something different than the point you're actually trying to make).

    I believe you are welcome to have these kinds of discussions on boards that allow it, but not on boards that are designated "Christian ONLY". So please start a new thread somewhere else and let me know where it is, because I'd love to continue this conversation on a board where we're actually allowed to have one ;)

    Thanks!

    Yours and His,
    David
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  15. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Of course it does.

    Yes, which is not a problem in this thread.
    Not at all, I just can't discuss it
    Not in this thread.

    I will start one for us in the Controversial Christian Theology section of this site..... called "Trinity discussion with St Worm2".
     
  16. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    The Trinity, as one of the most basic tenets of Christianity in general, is off limits on the CT board as well. Check out the Statement of Purpose at CT.

    Perhaps the Exploring Christianity board would work? Perhaps a mod could help us with this? :)
     
  17. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is why I said before, that you has a justification that is earned by the believer, not received as a free gift of Grace. Paul says in Galatians that it is either by Faith or by Works, but it cannot be both. Now remember we are talking about, how a sinner is justified before a Holy God.

    Here are some passages for you to ponder upon:

    Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


    Romans 10:1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    I have more passages, but I will start with these. Take your time, and ponder upon these passages of Grace for the ungodly!
    Listen, you said this, "So, justification DOES depend on Christ's work .... (AND) on our works!

    So here you said that's its Christ's works AND on our works that a sinner is justified. And I have been repeating what you said. That, by our works we are justified.

    Galatians 2:16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
     
  18. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agreed.
    Before I respond to what you wrote here. How do you explain Romans 3, where Paul says no one is righteous, no one is good.

    This is a misconception of the Reformed Faith. So allow me to clarify it. All of Adam's progeny is under the curse of the Law. I hope you agree with this. Why are we under this curse of the Law? Because of One Man's disobedience bought death & condemnation to us all. So enters the second Adam, who through His Perfect Obedience to God's Law (Matt 5:17), fulfills it, not abolishes it for us! He then becomes a curse for us to free us from the bondage of the Law. Now being made alive in Christ by God, we can live to God as Paul instructs in Romans 6. Through Faith in Christ we are dead to sin, and alive to God. 31Do we, then, nullify the Law by this faith? By no means! Instead, we uphold the Law. So we do not put aside the Law, we uphold the Law. Because the is righteous, Holy, and good as Paul says in Romans 7, as he struggles with sin.

    Another misconception of the Reformed Faith. Here Paul answers your blurred view of what we are saying:

    27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

    So Paul anticipates the same objection, that you bring up. And Paul is lucid in His response to your concern.

    This is answered in the previous reply. Ask me if you have any more questions.
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 6:9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God

    Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

    There are a number of instances like the above where Bible clearly describes certain people as being righteous, so it is completely false that there is no one who is righteous. Furthermore, throughout Proverbs and Psalms, they frequently refer to a category of people called "the righteous" and it wouldn't make any sense if they were talking about a category to which no one belonged. Rather, Romans 3:11 is quoting from Psalms 14:1-3 and Psalms 53:1-3, both of which are referring to fools who say that there is no God, none of which are righteous, not even one.

    According to Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Law brings life and a blessing for obedience and death and a curse for disobedience, so those among Adam's progeny who are under the curse of the Law are just those who practice disobedience to it. Now that we have been set free from the curse of the Law, we have been set free from living in disobedience to it and are now free to enjoy the blessing of the Law by living in obedience to it by grace through faith. God is not a cruel Father, so He did not give the Law in order put His people under a curse, but rather He said that what He commanded was for His people's own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, Deuteronomy 10:13), and the intention is for us to choose life. God is not a cruel Father, so He did not free the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them back under bondage to His Law, but rather it is for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1). God's Law is a law of freedom (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25), while it is sin in transgression of God's Law that puts us into bondage. It does not make any sense to say that we need to be set free from follow God's instructions for how to live for Him in order to be set free to live for Him. The way our faith upholds the Mosaic Law is by leading us to live in obedience to it.

    Pleroo: to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

    In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law and then proceeded to fulfill it six times by causing God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it should be. Furthermore, Galatians 5:14 says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, meaning that it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did, such as perfectly obeying the Law. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which is obeying it as it should be obeyed. In addition, Romans 15:18-19 says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which he did by causing it to be fully obeyed in word and in deed as it should be obeyed.

    In Romans 3:27, Paul spoke about two different laws: one of faith and one of works. In Galatians 3:10-12 it says that works of the law are not of faith, so man-made laws are not of faith, while in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier aspects of God's Law, so God's Law is of faith, and obedience to God's Law is straightforwardly about having faith in God that His commands are for our own good and faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live in accordance with His holiness, righteousness, and goodness. The one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith, so we are justified by faith apart from man-made works of law, contrary to the position of the Pharisees. Just as the Jews have always been justified by faith, so are the Gentiles, and because Jews were never required to become circumcised in order to become saved, neither are the Gentiles, again contrary to the man-made requirement of the Pharisees (Acts 15:1). We do not overthrow the Mosaic Law by faith, but rather by faith we are required to live in obedience to it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  20. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Again, this notion of "earning" is a "Straw Man". It isn't possible to "earn" infinity!!

    Your claim is incorrect. Paul never uses the word "works" alone in Galations ... he uses the phrase "works of the law", (other than in Gal 5, discussing the works of the flesh, which NO ONE claims leads to salvation). Paul was combating those who were demanding obedience to the Mosaic Law.
    NEVER does Paul conclude "it cannot be both", in fact the word "both" is never used in Galatians.

    Again, you are arguing against the notion of "EARNING" salvation, because you aren't listening.

    I am already convinced man cannot "EARN" salvation!

    This discussion is about the NECESSITY of works, NOT that works EARN salvation.

    A great analogy is, getting a Social Security number does NOT "EARN" you a check. But you have NO chance of getting a Social Security check without one! You MUST do the "works" of getting a number, that does NOT mean you have EARNED anything.

    You correctly included my points in quotes .... and then you artificially truncated my points in your comment!
    You then quote Galatians 2 ... so I emphasized the "of the law" phrase that clarifies Paul's point;

    Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works .......

    of the law

    ...... but through faith in Jesus Christ,
    so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works

    of the law
    ,


    because by works


    of the law


    no one will be justified.


    This verse doesn't help your point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
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