Does God Accept Imperfect Obedience?

[pescador]

Here's part of 1 John. I read it and I agree with Hammster, it was written to the church. Take note of the text in bold below that clearly shows who St. John was addressing (in the church*), and what is either being said to them or about them This letter was written to the saints, both young and old in the faith.

*(this is a quick look at this passage, IOW, I just hit some of the obvious highlights to make my point)

Chapter 2​

Christ Is Our Advocate​

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.
9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Do Not Love the World​

15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

The Promise Is Eternal Life​

25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.​

In Christ,
David

1 John 5
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
​

That's why I said that 1 John 1 wasn't written to believers. Please read posts more carefully before responding.

 

[EmSw]

The Heidelberg Catechism explains this point as follows:

60. Q.
How are you righteous before God?

A. Only by true faith in Jesus Christ. Although my conscience accuses me that I have grievously sinned against all God's commandments, have never kept any of them, and am still inclined to all evil, yet God, without any merit of my own, out of mere grace, imputes to me the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ. He grants these to me as if I had never had nor committed any sin, and as if I myself had accomplished all the obedience which Christ has rendered for me, if only I accept this gift with a believing heart.​

​

So, we have a person, from self admission, who hates God, hates his neighbor, is a murderer, is an adulterer, is a liar, and a thief writing this.

And this is what you are holding to, ladodger? Just goes to show, some people will believe anything, even from a professed liar.

 

[EmSw]

Seems like there is a raft of verses that confirm rewards in heaven, but only a few that warn of losing them...
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

I sure hope that receiving rewards isn't your motivation for doing good.

1 Corinthians 3:12-14
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

You need to read the entire chapter to get the context of building upon the foundation.

Paul talks of planting and building. What is planted and built are predicated of people, not any kind of personal works. Speaking to the Corinthians, he says, 'you are God’s field, you are God’s building.'

What is built upon the foundation is speaking of people. These people are either gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw. It is the actions and deeds of those people built upon the foundation. The day will declare their actions, speaking of judgment; fire will test each and every person built upon the foundation of Jesus.

If anyone endures this fire, the person who built will receive a reward, and if anyone does not endure, he will suffer loss. Even though his work (the person he built upon the foundation) is burned by fire, the builder himself will be saved, because his salvation is not dependent upon the actions and deeds of what he built (people).

 

[EmSw]

That's why I said that 1 John 1 wasn't written to believers. Please read posts more carefully before responding.

And just how did John get this message to unbelievers?

How was their joy to be full? This is what Jesus told His disciples. Was Jesus speaking to unbelievers also?

 

[Dartman]

1 John 1 was written to non-Christians. There is absolutely no need for Christians to confess our sins and beg for forgiveness! If we are not forgiven then Jesus died for nothing!

Incorrect.
John calls his audience "brethren", and discusses others, who have left them.
The apostles didn't write to non-christians.

 

[pescador]

Incorrect.
John calls his audience "brethren", and discusses others, who have left them.
The apostles didn't write to non-christians.

The word "brethren" does not appear anywhere in 1 John 1. Read your Bible!

The apostles didn't write to non-Christians? To whom were the Gospels written? Please do a little more research before coming out with statements that are just plain untrue!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

1 John 1 was written to non-Christians. There is absolutely no need for Christians to confess our sins and beg for forgiveness! If we are not forgiven then Jesus died for nothing!

You can simply read the opening of the book and know that your above comment isn't correct. It's not that difficult to determine who the book was addressed to. No need for a PhD.

I find it hard to believe that you even posted what you did, so I wonder if there was a joke I've missed. Is there?

 

[Dartman]

The word "brethren" does not appear anywhere in 1 John 1.

John didn't write just one chapter! Read your Bible!
Your attempt to make the text match your doctrine is backwards!
Make your doctrine match the Scriptures!

The apostles didn't write to non-Christians? To whom were the Gospels written?

Not a single one is addressed to non-Christians!
Please do a little more research before coming out with statements that are just plain untrue!

 

[pescador]

You can simply read the opening of the book and know that your above comment isn't correct. It's not that difficult to determine who the book was addressed to. No need for a PhD.

I find it hard to believe that you even posted what you did, so I wonder if there was a joke I've missed. Is there?

Okay, let's look at 1 John 1...

"This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life— and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you [why would John announce these truths to Christians, who already knew them?] the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us). What we have seen and heard we announce to you too [If the recipients were Christians they would not need this announcement!] so that you may have fellowship with us [Christians didn't already have fellowship with other Christians?] (and indeed our [not your] fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). [There would be no need to write this if the recipients didn't already have fellowship with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ] Thus we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. [John's and the other Christians joy would become complete if the non-believers joined them] Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: [These Christians had never heard the gospel??] God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. [Wouldn't they already know this if they were Christians?]

There is no other rational way to interpret the opening of 1 John. It was clearly written by John to inform people of something they didn't know: that they could have fellowship with God and Jesus Christ by believing his gospel. He wanted them to join their group of believers so that they could all be together in having fellowship with God, Jesus Christ, and other Christians.

You didn't miss any joke, you missed the truth that is clearly stated in the Bible.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Okay, let's look at 1 John 1...



You didn't miss any joke, you missed the truth that is clearly stated in the Bible.

1 John 2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

I am writing to you, little children,
because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.
I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God abides in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.


Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.

I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. (ESV)

 

[pescador]

John didn't write just one chapter! Read your Bible!
Your attempt to make the text match your doctrine is backwards!
Make your doctrine match the Scriptures!
Not a single one is addressed to non-Christians!
Please do a little more research before coming out with statements that are just plain untrue!

Of course John didn't write just one chapter, but the first part of 1 John is clearly written to unbelievers, as is his gospel.

Neither Matthew, Mark, Luke, nor John wrote their gospels to believers. Why would they? They were written to convince people that Jesus is God's Messiah. That is there one and only purpose.

I'm not going to discuss this any further. It has nothing to do with God accepting imperfect obedience, the subject of the thread.

If you don't understand what the Bible clearly says, that is not my problem.

 

[pescador]

1 John 2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

I am writing to you, little children,
because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.
I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God abides in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.


Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.

I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. (ESV)

Congratulations on having read 1 John 2. That part of the letter was addressed to Christians. 1 John 1 was not. I suggest you go back and read the preceding chapter.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Congratulations on having read 1 John 2. That part of the letter was addressed to Christians. 1 John 1 was not. I suggest you go back and read the preceding chapter.

You can't be serious. How did he send a letter to random unbelievers, email?

 

[pescador]

You can't be serious. How did he send a letter to random unbelievers, email?

Yes, e-mail. Bye bye!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yes, e-mail. Bye bye!

Your position can't be defended, so retreat is your best option.

Be well.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi @pescador, 1 John 2 begins by saying this:

"My little children, I am writing these things to you........................."
​

Which things? Everything he just wrote prior to that in what we now call 1 John 1 (obviously the Apostle didn't have chapter breaks in his personal letters ).

1 John is a pastoral letter, written from the heart of the Lord's undershepherd to the flock he had been given charge of by the Lord. What the balance of the Epistle makes clear is that times were tough, especially for those new to the faith, because of all the false doctrine that had become so prevalent at the end of the 1st Century (Gnosticism certainly being a big part of that). So 1 John is a call to remember the facts, Christianity 101, so to speak, and the opening is meant as a assurance to his flock that those facts were true. IOW, be assured, particularly those of you who are young in the faith, because we were eye witnesses of the truth that we proclaim to you.

1 John 1
1 WHAT was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life—
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. ​

This was a call to assurance about the faith, and a call to fellowship within the faith (to those brand new to the faith). It's not a call to salvation.

BTW, the Gospel message itself is (obviously) for non-believers. The Gospels and the Epistles were principally written to Christians. Remember St. Paul's description of a non-Christian:

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.Foundation.​

Yours and His,
David

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hi Pescador, 1 John 2 begins by saying this:

"My little children, I am writing these things to you........................."
​

Which things? Everything he just wrote prior to that in what we now call 1 John 1 (obviously the Apostle didn't have chapter breaks in his personal letters ).

1 John is a pastoral letter, written from the heart of the Lord's undershepherd to the flock he had been given charge of by the Lord. What the balance of the Epistle makes clear is that times were tough, especially for those new to the faith, because of all the false doctrine that had become so prevalent at the end of the 1st Century (Gnosticism certainly being a big part of that). So 1 John is a call to remember the facts about Christianity 101, so to speak, and the opening is meant as a assurance to his flock that those facts were true. IOW, be assured, particularly those of you who are young in the faith, because we were eye witnesses of that truth that we proclaim to you.

1 John 1
1 WHAT was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life—
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. ​

BTW, the Gospel message itself is (obviously) for non-believers. The Gospels and the Epistles were principally written to Christians. Remember St. Paul's description of a non-Christian:

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.Foundation.​

Yours and His,
David

Well thought out answer. You have such greater patience and winsomeness than I do, David.

 

[pescador]

Your position can't be defended, so retreat is your best option.

Be well.

Because you can't understand it doesn't mean it can't be defended. I have explained it as carefully and thoroughly as I can. "Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.” Mark 4:9

A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised

 

[pescador]

Well thought out answer. You have such greater patience and winsomeness than I do, David.

Winsomeness = Sweetly or innocently charming.

 

[EmSw]

Okay, let's look at 1 John 1...

"This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life— and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you [why would John announce these truths to Christians, who already knew them?] the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us). What we have seen and heard we announce to you too [If the recipients were Christians they would not need this announcement!] so that you may have fellowship with us [Christians didn't already have fellowship with other Christians?] (and indeed our [not your] fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). [There would be no need to write this if the recipients didn't already have fellowship with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ] Thus we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. [John's and the other Christians joy would become complete if the non-believers joined them] Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: [These Christians had never heard the gospel??] God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. [Wouldn't they already know this if they were Christians?]

There is no other rational way to interpret the opening of 1 John. It was clearly written by John to inform people of something they didn't know: that they could have fellowship with God and Jesus Christ by believing his gospel. He wanted them to join their group of believers so that they could all be together in having fellowship with God, Jesus Christ, and other Christians.

You didn't miss any joke, you missed the truth that is clearly stated in the Bible.

Well, well, well. We have someone here who believes John wrote in chapters. Here's a hint - he didn't. It was all one letter. So let's see what it says if we didn't have chapters.

(chapter 1) 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(chapter 2) 1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John says My little children these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. The things he wrote were the things in 'chapter 1'. At the end of chapter 1, John discusses sin, and continues that thought in chapter 2.

Now you know.