does free will exist?

[Hillsage]

But if we use your example, saying that WE have to do something, couldn't we logically follow through the whole Bible and say that WE also are solely in control of keeping every letter of the law? If that depends on our effort, why not everything else?

. It's not "my example". It is scriptural. How do you answer those scriptures?

 

[o2bwise]

Hi cuja1,

sorry to make you repeat. I have a hard time connecting the dots.

You seem to be the closest in understanding where I am coming from with this.

There is one problem though, when you say that one person chooses A and one person chooses B. The problem is that no one has ever been another person, so it has never happened that one person chose A and another person chose B under those conditions.

I think the saying about walking a mile in someone elses shoes comes into play here. But if anyone could walk a lifetime in someone elses shoes, I wonder if the results would be different.

I think the one thing that causes a choice to be different is faith. And we know from the Bible that faith is not something we can take credit for.

I certainly agree that no two people are 100% identical in nature and nurture (environment), but taken as a "let's pretend hypothesis," I believe my point is still made.

If we pretended there were two such people, why one of them would choose something different than the other is something unexplainable to me.

The only other thought I have is regarding faith. Yes, it is given to all men, but to take it a step further...

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans also says creation is a facet of the word of God. So faith is not some mysteriously occurring phenomenon. It is a result of revelation having come upon us.


Blessings,

Tony

 

[cuja1]

Hi cuja1,

I certainly agree that no two people are 100% identical in nature and nurture (environment), but taken as a "let's pretend hypothesis," I believe my point is still made.

If we pretended there were two such people, why one of them would choose something different than the other is something unexplainable to me.

The only other thought I have is regarding faith. Yes, it is given to all men, but to take it a step further...

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans also says creation is a facet of the word of God. So faith is not some mysteriously occurring phenomenon. It is a result of revelation having come upon us.


Blessings,

Tony

The problem I see with your hypothetical situation is that you are assuming that the two people are capable of choosing differently. You can't assume that until you decide if it is possible. I would say that it is impossible. Let's say that I am you. Could I take a different course of action at any point in your life other than the ones you have taken. I say no. Because I no longer have my mind to change what you have done in the past. I now have your mind and there is no way that I could influence what you have done because I am now you.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" but what does that actually mean? Faith comes from hearing and you hear from God's word. I don't see where that shows that man is somehow capable of acquiring faith on his own.

 

[cuja1]

Those were all very good/true scriptures, but another side is still needing our participation. And I think scripture below indicates that WE should keep our eye single.

LUK 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. 35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

Scripture also seems to indicate we have a part to do, after God gives us a new heart.

Proverbs 4:23 Watch over your heart with all diligence, For from it flow the springs of life.

When I said examples, I meant the verses you provided.
So we have "Take Heed" and "Watch". As I understand, you say that because these are commands from the Bible, we as humans are completely capable of obeying them with absolutely no help from God whatsoever. Correct?

 

[Hillsage]

When I said examples, I meant the verses you provided.
So we have "Take Heed" and "Watch". As I understand, you say that because these are commands from the Bible, we as humans are completely capable of obeying them with absolutely no help from God whatsoever. Correct?

I believe scripture supports that we have our part, YES.

GAL 5:23 ..., self-control;.... 24 And those who have crucified the flesh belong to Christ Jesus with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

JAM 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

I believe you determine God's assistance vs God's resistance.

1PE 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God,

These scriptures even prove GRACE isn't 'undeserved favor'. Apparently you have to DO SOMETHING to get it. So is it YOU/ME or is it GOD? YES I believe it is both!

 

[cuja1]

I believe scripture supports that we have our part, YES.

GAL 5:23 ..., self-control;.... 24 And those who have crucified the flesh belong to Christ Jesus with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

JAM 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

I believe you determine God's assistance vs God's resistance.

1PE 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God,

These scriptures even prove GRACE isn't 'undeserved favor'. Apparently you have to DO SOMETHING to get it. So is it YOU/ME or is it GOD? YES I believe it is both!

So then, in the scriptures you provided, we have the commands: Take heed, Watch, submit, humble yourselves. You agree that it requires us and God to carry out those command, correct?

 

[cuja1]

Hi cuja1,

I certainly agree that no two people are 100% identical in nature and nurture (environment), but taken as a "let's pretend hypothesis," I believe my point is still made.

If we pretended there were two such people, why one of them would choose something different than the other is something unexplainable to me.

The only other thought I have is regarding faith. Yes, it is given to all men, but to take it a step further...

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans also says creation is a facet of the word of God. So faith is not some mysteriously occurring phenomenon. It is a result of revelation having come upon us.


Blessings,

Tony

You say faith is given to all men, I'm not disputing that, but can you show me the scripture that says that?

 

[o2bwise]

cuja1:
The problem I see with your hypothetical situation is that you are assuming that the two people are capable of choosing differently.

No, I never once said that.

I said IF they were able to choose differently, I have absolutely no understanding how this is so.

 

[o2bwise]

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

I may have erred. Perhaps the verse refers to only those he is writing to - the saints at Rome.

 

[rick357]

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

I may have erred. Perhaps the verse refers to only those he is writing to - the saints at Rome.

When we look at the word faith it is nothing more than a trust and reliance...so it in itself is not a power but a dependance on a power....whether it be self or man or aliens or God....so yes all men are trusting in something

 

[o2bwise]

But, is that the intended meaning in the passage? Or is the passage referring to trust in something specific - God?

Moreover, is that the intended meaning within this discussion? Faith in a completely generic sense as opposed to faith in God?

 

[rick357]

But, is that the intended meaning in the passage? Or is the passage referring to trust in something specific - God?

Moreover, is that the intended meaning within this discussion? Faith in a completely generic sense as opposed to faith in God?

I would say in the verse quoted Paul referes to the faith(in Christ)....as to our discussion for those God forknows as wanting his life it is required that he bring them the faith ...before they can exersize their free will....yet those who would choose their own way are loving in freewill from their birth.

 

[o2bwise]

But isn't the quality of wanting His life one of faith? Is not that quality righteous?

 

[rick357]

But isn't the quality of wanting His life one of faith? Is not that quality righteous?

He is the life...he is the righteous....our faith or trust is in his life through us ..in us..one with us...yet he is the author and finisher of our faith

 

[cuja1]

Hi cuja1,

I certainly agree that no two people are 100% identical in nature and nurture (environment), but taken as a "let's pretend hypothesis," I believe my point is still made.

If we pretended there were two such people, why one of them would choose something different than the other is something unexplainable to me.

The only other thought I have is regarding faith. Yes, it is given to all men, but to take it a step further...

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans also says creation is a facet of the word of God. So faith is not some mysteriously occurring phenomenon. It is a result of revelation having come upon us.


Blessings,

Tony

your post seems to say that you are assuming it's possible. Are you then agreeing that it is not possible?

 

[cuja1]

No, I never once said that.

I said IF they were able to choose differently, I have absolutely no understanding how this is so.

Or is your position that you don't really know if it is possible?

 

[ron4shua]

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly (*), according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
King James Version (KJV)

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Grace <1,,5485,charis> the power and equipment for ministry, e.g., Rom. 1:5; 12:6; 15:15; 1 Cor. 3:10; Gal. 2:9; Eph. 3:2,7.

Given <1,,1325,didomi> "to give," is used with various meanings according to the context; it is said, e.g., of seed "yielding fruit,"

Soberly <A-1,Adjective,4998,sophron>denotes "of sound mind" (sozo, "to save," phren, "the mind"); hence, "self-controlled, soberminded," always rendered "sober-minded" in the RV; in 1 Tim. 3:2; Titus 1:8, AV, "sober;" in Titus 2:2, AV, "temperate;" in Titus 2:5, AV, "discreet."

* Rom 12:3 [ into, unto, to, towards, for, among ]
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, G1519 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Dealt <1,,3307,merizo>
signifies "to divide into parts" (meros, "a portion, part"); hence, "to distribute, divide out, deal out to," translated "hath dealt" in Rom. 12:3. See DIFFERENCE, DISTRIBUTE, DIVINE.


Measure <A-1,Noun,3358,metron>" Rom. 12:3; 2 Cor. 10:13 (twice); Eph. 4:7, "(according to the) measure (of the gift of Christ);" the gift of grace is "measured" and given according to the will of Christ; whatever the endowment, His is the bestowment and the adjustment;

Faith <1,,4102,pistis> primarily, "firm persuasion," a conviction based upon hearing (akin to peitho, "to persuade"), is used in the NT always of "faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual."

 

[Hillsage]

So then, in the scriptures you provided, we have the commands: Take heed, Watch, submit, humble yourselves. You agree that it requires us and God to carry out those command, correct?

I don't think scripture supports God making me 'believe' to do those things. But as far as "carrying out those commands", it might just line up with 'I can do all things through Christ in me'. I don't know that scripture is as sure, as many who debate this, one way or the other.

 

[cuja1]

I don't think scripture supports God making me 'believe' to do those things. But as far as "carrying out those commands", it might just line up with 'I can do all things through Christ in me'. I don't know that scripture is as sure, as many who debate this, one way or the other.

I agree, I don't think God makes us believe. But is it possible that He leads us down a path showing us why we should and would want to do things, thereby giving us power to desire and want to do good and then gives us the power to follow through with it. The whole time we are sensing and understanding and agreeing with God that what He is doing in us is good, but never in any instant able to affect the change. There is one exception. The whole time we could say, I don't like what you are doing, and we could choose to go a different path, but the fact that God has already shown us why we should want to do His will and given us the power to want to do His will, it is impossible for us to chose otherwise because we agree with God that it is good. God wouldn't give us the desire to do good until He has our complete agreement that what He wants is good.
So then really, all we are capable of doing is saying, yes I like this or no I don't like this. It is God that gives us the power (not makes us) to desire what is good and gives us the ability to carry it out.
God is the giver of EVERY good and perfect gift.
This could be why God has allowed the devil to tinker with our mind all our lives, in order to show us why we should want what is good and bring us into agreement with Him.
I in no way am 100% convinced of this, but I was just wondering if anyone else thinks it is a possibility.

 

[OFavro]

John 6:44-47 &#8220;No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me should draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me has eternal life.&#8221;

John 6:61-63 And Jesus, knowing in Himself that His disciples were murmuring about this, He said to them, &#8220;Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascending where He was before? It is the Spirit who makes alive; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.&#8221;

John 6:65 And He said, &#8220;Because of this I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.&#8221;

The Father &#8216;reasons&#8217; with man thru the convincing and convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit &#8211; man is free to choose whom he will serve &#8211; even as those of whom are talked about in this chapter who were free to choose whether or not to continue to follow after Jesus.