Does Free Will Exist?

[Chris81]

This robot has free will!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I never claimed to have Epistemological knowledge (whatever that is) just knowledge.

And I explained the two different meanings of the word 'knowledge'.

Epistemology is the philosophical study of knowledge, and the true meaning of the word 'knowledge' refers to something which we are 100% certain is true.

You, however, defined 'knowledge' in the scientific sense - something which we aren't 100% confident in, but are still confident enough that it almost certainly is true. In other words, you don't know you have free will, you merely assert there is overwhelming evidence.

Thus, I ask you to cite this evidence.

(reply) Again! I know the definition of “free will” and I know it applies to me!

I don't doubt - but you have yet to provide any supporting evidence for your claim that you do, in fact, have free will.

Because the choosing process is a part of who I am; and until I am proven wrong, I will continue to know I am right.
now can you prove me wrong?

Your logic is fallacious. Claims are not assumed true until proven false - if they were, I could claim "I've proven you wrong", and since you couldn't prove that was wrong, your original claim would be both right and wrong, which is a paradox, thus refuting the original premise that every claim is assumed right until proven wrong.

So, what reason, logic, evidence, and/or rationale, do you have to support your claim that you have free will? You keep asserting that you have free will, but you've yet to explain why you believe that.

 

[UnReAL13]

If you want proof of free will, try studying the thalamus and parietal cortex. The thalamus is the part of the brain where decisions are generated. The parietal cortex is where we perceive our conscious awareness of our thoughts and actions, where we act on those decisions. Our sense of "free will" is exhibited through the parietal cortex.

Modern neuroscience has come a long way, and may finally settle the matter of this age-old debate once and for all. I still feel Compatibilism and "relative free will" best describes the ability that we contain to freely choose our own behavior.

 

[Upisoft]

(reply) Do you suppoose such a computer has free will?
As far as indoctrination; I agree! I've seen so many theists who are so indoctrinated in their belief system that no amount of logic reason or even truth will sway them

K

Define what you mean by "free will".
If it is the ability to react to external event with unpredictable result, then yes. Even a random-generator has free will.

 

[sandwiches]

Define what you mean by "free will".
If it is the ability to react to external event with unpredictable result, then yes. Even a random-generator has free will.

Double brownie points for geek double whammy of Futurama reference and programming joke.

 

[jonmichael818]

If you want proof of free will, try studying the thalamus and parietal cortex. The thalamus is the part of the brain where decisions are generated. The parietal cortex is where we perceive our conscious awareness of our thoughts and actions, where we act on those decisions. Our sense of "free will" is exhibited through the parietal cortex.

The thalmus and parietal cortex are controlled by cause and effect (i.e. deterministic processes). They are the result of our genetics and external stimuli, thus we have a will, but that will is not free. Unless you are defining free will the way a compatibilist defines it, but even compatibilist free will is deterministic.

Modern neuroscience has come a long way, and may finally settle the matter of this age-old debate once and for all. I still feel Compatibilism and "relative free will" best describes the ability that we contain to freely choose our own behavior.

Neuroscience has come a long way, but it is giving us more evidence that our brain works according to deterministic processes. We are simply refining where the causes of our decisions come from.

 

[jonmichael818]

I never claimed to have Epistemological knowledge (whatever that is) just knowledge.

Knowledge is limited.

Again! I know the definition of “free will” and I know it applies to me!

There are many definitions.

Because the choosing process is a part of who I am; and until I am proven wrong, I will continue to know I am right.

All of that which you refer to as "who I am," is determined by prior causes. Who you are right now is the result of your genetics and environmental stimili. Your next choice will come from your genetics and your environmental experiences; all the way up to the very moment you make a decision, including all the thoughts going through your head.
How is there any "freeness" in that?
It is a domino effect, just a very complex one that gives you an illusion of free will.

now can you prove me wrong?

Yes

 

[UnReAL13]

The thalmus and parietal cortex are controlled by cause and effect (i.e. deterministic processes). They are the result of our genetics and external stimuli, thus we have a will, but that will is not free. Unless you are defining free will the way a compatibilist defines it, but even compatibilist free will is deterministic.

The nature of cause and effect doesn't "determine" my choice of chocolate over vanilla, Dr. Pepper over Pepsi, Nine Inch Nails over 3 Day's Grace, etc...

The laws of thermodynamics may accurately describe how the universe functions as a whole, but doesn't fully explain the nature of human choice. We are "free" to choose chocolate over vanilla. There may be deterministic reasons as to why we make this decision, but ultimately nothing is compelling us against our "will" to make this selection.

Yes I'm defining free will through the scope of compatibilism. Which doesn't necessarily say that free will is deterministic, but that these concepts are 2 sides of the same coin. Free will and determinism work in tandem with each other. Everything about our existence is determined until the point when a decision must be made. We then must exercise our free will to carry out that decision. What will follow is the effect of our decision in a deterministic fashion, which will then cycle back around to another decision that must be made on our part. And so on, and so on.

"Cause and effect" is not some type of god-like guiding force in our lives that plans for every decision we make. There are several different routes for cause and effect to follow, several different outcomes which may occur. We have a multitude of decisions that can be made at any instant with completely spontaneous and unpredictable results. Unpredictability in nature is shown through chaos theory. Quantum mechanics shows that the universe is actually very indeterministic on the most fundamental level.

The whole debate over the existence of free will might depend on Quantum Consciousness and how the mind actually functions on this level of observation. If higher brain functions are the result of uncaused quantum states, then that leaves plenty of room for relative free will to become an emergent property. It also depends on whether or not there can be newly emergent properties in an organism with increasingly added complexity. I would say that free will is a form of "weak emergence".

 

[sandwiches]

The nature of cause and effect doesn't "determine" my choice of chocolate over vanilla, Dr. Pepper over Pepsi, Nine Inch Nails over 3 Day's Grace, etc...

The laws of thermodynamics may accurately describe how the universe functions as a whole, but doesn't fully explain the nature of human choice. We are "free" to choose chocolate over vanilla. There may be deterministic reasons as to why we make this decision, but ultimately nothing is compelling us against our "will" to make this selection.

Of course nothing is compelling you against your will because the prior causes defined your will.

 

[jonmichael818]

The nature of cause and effect doesn't "determine" my choice of chocolate over vanilla, Dr. Pepper over Pepsi, Nine Inch Nails over 3 Day's Grace, etc...

So than what caused you to choose chocolate over vanilla, Dr. Pepper over Pepsi?

The laws of thermodynamics may accurately describe how the universe functions as a whole, but doesn't fully explain the nature of human choice. We are "free" to choose chocolate over vanilla. There may be deterministic reasons as to why we make this decision, but ultimately nothing is compelling us against our "will" to make this selection.

Your "will" is the result of genetics and evironment, the thing you call "I" "me" "self" is the net result of the laws of nature.

You make choices that are in line with your "will," but you have no choice in what your "will" is, therefore your next choice is based off of a will that you had no freeness in creating.

Yes I'm defining free will through the scope of compatibilism. Which doesn't necessarily say that free will is deterministic, but that these concepts are 2 sides of the same coin. Free will and determinism work in tandem with each other. Everything about our existence is determined until the point when a decision must be made. We then must exercise our free will to carry out that decision. What will follow is the effect of our decision in a deterministic fashion, which will then cycle back around to another decision that must be made on our part. And so on, and so on.

No, compatibilism is saying that free will and determinism are "compatibile," and the reason this is so is because they define free will such that it allows it to be so. Compatibilism (aka soft determinism) is ultimately just complex determinism.
Your example that everything is determined right up to the point when we make a decision, is really determinism and then all of a sudden you invoke libertarian mechanisms that make our decisions.

"Cause and effect" is not some type of god-like guiding force in our lives that plans for every decision we make. There are several different routes for cause and effect to follow, several different outcomes which may occur. We have a multitude of decisions that can be made at any instant with completely spontaneous and unpredictable results. Unpredictability in nature is shown through chaos theory.

Unpredictability does not prove that free will exists, it simply means that the outcome was unpredictable to us. Chaos theory is deterministic, consider the following:

Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general.This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.-Wikipedia

Quantum mechanics shows that the universe is actually very indeterministic on the most fundamental level.

This is entirely dependant upon which interpretation of QM you subscribe to, none of which is proven to be true. I myself take the Many Worlds view of QM, which is deterministic. I do not claim to actually know if free will exists or not, but I feel that the evidence points to a deterministic point of view.

Also, it is important to know that indeterminism and the truly random do not give an individual free will either. If a choice is the result of randomness, then your will was not the determinig factor in making the choice, it was completely random and you had nothing to do with it.

The whole debate over the existence of free will might depend on Quantum Consciousness and how the mind actually functions on this level of observation.

Agreed, but then we must find out which interpretation of QM is correct in order to truly resolve the issue.

 

[UnReAL13]

So than what caused you to choose chocolate over vanilla, Dr. Pepper over Pepsi?

Individual experience and personal preference. We were free to decide which food or drinks to consume to begin with. As one appeals over another, we then continue to choose our favorites. Nothing is forcing us to choose a specific drink, but the probable outcome has been "determined" by our past experiences.

You make choices that are in line with your "will," but you have no choice in what your "will" is, therefore your next choice is based off of a will that you had no freeness in creating.

Your choices are still free from outside influence. No, we could not control the initial drive or "will". It's this raw instinctual motivation that drove us towards our first conscious decisions, which we were free to determine to our own accord. Arthur Schropenhauer stated "Man can do what he wills, but cannot will what he wills". This emphasizes the entire point of Compatibilism.

No, compatibilism is saying that free will and determinism are "compatibile," and the reason this is so is because they define free will such that it allows it to be so. Compatibilism (aka soft determinism) is ultimately just complex determinism.
Your example that everything is determined right up to the point when we make a decision, is really determinism and then all of a sudden you invoke libertarian mechanisms that make our decisions.

Yes, they are "compatible" concepts, meaning they're not necessarily the same thing. I am not promoting Libertarianism. I'm saying that our free will is relative to the deterministic circumstances. I'm saying that cause and effect only determines so much about our lives, and that free will is how we determine the rest for ourselves.

Unpredictability does not prove that free will exists, it simply means that the outcome was unpredictable to us. Chaos theory is deterministic, consider the following:

Chaos theory follows a course of deterministic causal relationships, just as any human behavior does. But the unpredictability shows that there is no fixed location for any particular form of matter and energy. Just as there's no fixed location for the position of a human being. There are several deterministic routes of cause and effect that we can freely choose to follow. The exact conditions of the outcomes are unpredictable though.

Also, it is important to know that indeterminism and the truly random do not give an individual free will either. If a choice is the result of randomness, then your will was not the determinig factor in making the choice, it was completely random and you had nothing to do with it.

If we had nothing to do with a random choice, then how did we ever make the choice to begin with? Even if our behavior is completely spontaneous and random, we still have to consciously decide to behave in such a manner. We still have to freely choose which behavior to engage in, where to do it, and when to do it.

In many cases, free will equates to choice of environment. But I think it's a bit more than that. I would say it's more like choice of "behavior". Studies have shown that different areas within our temporal lobes are responsible for happy and sad emotions. Also that we are able to consciously will ourselves to feel one emotion over another. Even if self-induced behavior is influenced by prior causes, it's still a conscious decision that we are free to make.

One must also consider free will as being the "choice of language". We each formulate our own thoughts to our own discretion. We all choose our own ways of wording a sentence. New words and terminology are created on a daily basis. But this was all determined beforehand? How could a non-existent idea be determined before it was ever contemplated?

All of this ties into "choice of behavior". There must have been a point in evolution when early ape men started becoming more socially interactive. I imagine that language started through different pitches of grunts and moans. This probably gradually developed into a primitive language. As mankind evolved, we developed our abilities of diction and enunciation. Language was formed, which may have resulted from a deterministic influence (primitive instincts), but then became integrated into our conscious decision making process (relative free will). The study of the origin of language is known as Glottogony, and I think is very germane to the discussion at hand.

 

[Ken-1122]

Wiccan Child (quote) “you have yet to provide any supporting evidence for your claim that you do, in fact, have free will…..So, what reason, logic, evidence, and/or rationale, do you have to support your claim that you have free will? You keep asserting that you have free will, but you've yet to explain why you believe that.”

(reply) Okay I define free will as the ability to make a choice. In other words; if I don’t have free will that would mean an outside source is controlling my decisions. so I ask you, what is this outside source that controls what I do?

Upisoft (quote) “Define what you mean by "free will".
If it is the ability to react to external event with unpredictable result, then yes. Even a random-generator has free will.”

(reply) I define free will as the ability to make a choice. Does the random generator have the ability to make a choice?

Jonmichael818 (quote) “All of that which you refer to as "who I am," is determined by prior causes. Who you are right now is the result of your genetics and environmental stimili. Your next choice will come from your genetics and your environmental experiences; all the way up to the very moment you make a decision, including all the thoughts going through your head.

How is there any "freeness" in that?
It is a domino effect, just a very complex one that gives you an illusion of free will.”

(reply) As I told Wiccan Child, if I don’t have freewill it would mean what I do is decided by an outside source. My genetics and enviromental stimuli is not an outside source; it is a part of me thus I have free will.

Ken

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Wiccan Child (quote) “you have yet to provide any supporting evidence for your claim that you do, in fact, have free will…..So, what reason, logic, evidence, and/or rationale, do you have to support your claim that you have free will? You keep asserting that you have free will, but you've yet to explain why you believe that.”

(reply) Okay I define free will as the ability to make a choice. In other words; if I don’t have free will that would mean an outside source is controlling my decisions. so I ask you, what is this outside source that controls what I do?

Upisoft (quote) “Define what you mean by "free will".
If it is the ability to react to external event with unpredictable result, then yes. Even a random-generator has free will.”

(reply) I define free will as the ability to make a choice. Does the random generator have the ability to make a choice?

Jonmichael818 (quote) “All of that which you refer to as "who I am," is determined by prior causes. Who you are right now is the result of your genetics and environmental stimili. Your next choice will come from your genetics and your environmental experiences; all the way up to the very moment you make a decision, including all the thoughts going through your head.

How is there any "freeness" in that?
It is a domino effect, just a very complex one that gives you an illusion of free will.”

(reply) As I told Wiccan Child, if I don’t have freewill it would mean what I do is decided by an outside source. My genetics and enviromental stimuli is not an outside source; it is a part of me thus I have free will.

Ken

You are equivocating. By that definition, the random number generators built into my computer give my computer free will - they are the internal source of the decision making on my computer. Since my computer can make a choice based at least partially on internal sources, according to your definition it has free will

 

[Ken-1122]

You are equivocating. By that definition, the random number generators built into my computer give my computer free will - they are the internal source of the decision making on my computer. Since my computer can make a choice based at least partially on internal sources, according to your definition it has free will

(reply) I don’t know enough about computers to debate them. If you wanna make the argument that your computer has free will; that’s fine I am not gonna argue with you.

Ken

 

[Wiccan_Child]

(reply) I don’t know enough about computers to debate them. If you wanna make the argument that your computer has free will; that’s fine I am not gonna argue with you.

Ken

So you're saying my computer, my calculator, my... toaster, all of these things have free will?

I'm obviously not making the argument that my computer does have free will, I'm making an argumentum ad absurdum: your argument, taken to its logical conclusions, leads to an absurdity.

 

[Upisoft]

Upisoft (quote) “Define what you mean by "free will".
If it is the ability to react to external event with unpredictable result, then yes. Even a random-generator has free will.”

(reply) I define free will as the ability to make a choice. Does the random generator have the ability to make a choice?

I don't know. It depends on what you define as "ability to make a choice". The best way you can define it will be a test we can use to see if something has this ability or not. For example if you want to see if some material has ability to melt, you usually make a test with slow increase of the temperature. So, I'm expecting such kind of answer.

 

[Ken-1122]

So you're saying my computer, my calculator, my... toaster, all of these things have free will?

I'm obviously not making the argument that my computer does have free will, I'm making an argumentum ad absurdum: your argument, taken to its logical conclusions, leads to an absurdity.

(reply) I'm not claiming your computer, calculator or toaster have free will, those are your words not mine.
My definition of freewill comes from the dictionary so if you have a problem with how I define it, your problem is with the dictionary.
Since you obvously have a problem with the dictionary's definnition, how do YOU define free will?

K

 

[sandwiches]

(reply) I'm not claiming your computer, calculator or toaster have free will, those are your words not mine.
My definition of freewill comes from the dictionary so if you have a problem with how I define it, your problem is with the dictionary.
Since you obvously have a problem with the dictionary's definnition, how do YOU define free will?

K

Then you agree that following your definition, a computer or calculator would have free will?

 

[Ken-1122]

Upisoft (quote) “It depends on what you define as "ability to make a choice". The best way you can define it will be a test we can use to see if something has this ability or not. For example if you want to see if some material has ability to melt, you usually make a test with slow increase of the temperature. So, I'm expecting such kind of answer.”

(reply) The clothes I decided to wear this morning, the food I decided to eat for breakfast, and the TV show I decided to watch while eating breakfast this morning was a choice; I could have dressed, eaten, etc. differently if I chose to.
If free will is the ability to make a choice, I made too many choices to list within the first half hour of waking up this morning. That IMO is an example of free will

Sandwitch (quote) “Then you agree that following your definition, a computer or calculator would have free will?”

(reply) No! I am unaware of a computer or calculator that is capable of making a choice without human intervention. If you are aware of such machines, than I will allow you to make such a case.

K

 

[sandwiches]

(reply) No! I am unaware of a computer or calculator that is capable of making a choice without human intervention. If you are aware of such machines, than I will allow you to make such a case.

K

So, you're unaware of routers, which decide where to send network traffic automatically based on routing tables, port, origin, destination, packet size, etc? You unaware of traffic light controllers which decide to turn green or red depending on whether they detect cars within their sensors? You're unaware of just about every single video ever created which has the computer make decisions for the AI players based on thousands of different variables and some are even able to learn? You're unaware of how laptops will automatically shut down when they detect they're low on power?

You're unaware of all those things?