Does Free Will Exist?

[Ken-1122]

So, you're unaware of routers, which decide where to send network traffic automatically based on routing tables, port, origin, destination, packet size, etc? You unaware of traffic light controllers which decide to turn green or red depending on whether they detect cars within their sensors? You're unaware of just about every single video ever created which has the computer make decisions for the AI players based on thousands of different variables and some are even able to learn? You're unaware of how laptops will automatically shut down when they detect they're low on power?

You're unaware of all those things?

I'm aware of these things, but they don't make choices on their own; they react to their outside influences. Traffic light reacts to traffic, at that particular moment, computer shuts down when it is low on power, routers react to the router tables, etc. if these things had free will, the traffic light could decide to have all the lights stay red just for the fun of it or because it is in a bad mood; the computer could decide to stay on and run the battary down just to tick somebody off. These things don't have free will

Ken

 

[Upisoft]

(reply) The clothes I decided to wear this morning, the food I decided to eat for breakfast, and the TV show I decided to watch while eating breakfast this morning was a choice; I could have dressed, eaten, etc. differently if I chose to.
If free will is the ability to make a choice, I made too many choices to list within the first half hour of waking up this morning. That IMO is an example of free will

How I can be sure that you have decided to do so. I only have your word for it and nothing more.

If I write a program that displays:
"I've decided to output number 342"
"I've decided to output number 865834"
"I've decided to output number 5956"
"I've decided to output number 81"
etc.

Would you accept that this program has free will?

 

[sandwiches]

I'm aware of these things, but they don't make choices on their own; they react to their outside influences. Traffic light reacts to traffic, at that particular moment, computer shuts down when it is low on power, routers react to the router tables, etc. if these things had free will, the traffic light could decide to have all the lights stay red just for the fun of it or because it is in a bad mood; the computer could decide to stay on and run the battary down just to tick somebody off. These things don't have free will

Ken

Now, you're adding to the definition terms like "fun," "bad mood," etc. This has nothing to do with the definition you mentioned earlier: "I define free will as the ability to make a choice." Nothing about making a choice for the fun of it or because it's in a bad mood.

Routers make a choices based on what they know. How is that different from me making a choice of drinking Pepsi or Coke?

 

[sandwiches]

How I can be sure that you have decided to do so. I only have your word for it and nothing more.

If I write a program that displays:
"I've decided to output number 342"
"I've decided to output number 865834"
"I've decided to output number 5956"
"I've decided to output number 81"
etc.

Would you accept that this program has free will?

Exactly. And when asked things like "How do you know?" It would respond "I know because I am making choices." How is that any different than Ken's responses? How would we be able to tell whether Ken or the computer have free will?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

(reply) I'm not claiming your computer, calculator or toaster have free will, those are your words not mine.

Actually, they're yours:

You: "I define free will as the ability to make a choice."

Me: "So you're saying my computer, my calculator, my... toaster, all of these things have free will?"

You: "If you wanna make the argument that your computer has free will; that’s fine I am not gonna argue with you."

Effectively, you agreed with my conclusion - you defined free will as the ability to make a choice (a vacuous and ambiguous definition, but we'll roll with it), and since computers, calculators, and toaster can makes choices, it logically follows that computers, calculators, and toasters have free will.

I didn't think it needed pointing out, but - I'm not seriously arguing that toasters have free will. As I said, mine is an argumentum ad absurdum: I'm demonstrating the fallacy of your argument by showing it leads to an absurdity (namely, that toasters have free will).

My definition of freewill comes from the dictionary so if you have a problem with how I define it, your problem is with the dictionary.
Since you obvously have a problem with the dictionary's definnition, how do YOU define free will?

I don't. Besides, we're discussing your opinions, not mine. You made the claim that you know you have free will, so we're discussing that claim.

 

[Ken-1122]

Upisoft (quote) “How I can be sure that you have decided to do so. I only have your word for it and nothing more.”

(reply) How can you be sure I’m not an alien from another planet? You only have my word and nothing more. I guess you have no reason to assume otherwise huh?

(quote) “If I write a program that displays: "I've decided to output number 342" "I've decided to output number 865834"" I've decided to output number 5956"" I've decided to output number 81"etc.
Would you accept that this program has free will?”

(reply) I know very little about computer programs; I have no idea what you will accomplish by doing all that stuff so to answer your question; No!

Sandwiches (quote) “Now, you're adding to the definition terms like "fun," "bad mood," etc. This has nothing to do with the definition you mentioned earlier: "I define free will as the ability to make a choice." Nothing about making a choice for the fun of it or because it's in a bad mood.

Routers make a choices based on what they know. How is that different from me making a choice of drinking Pepsi or Coke?”

(reply) I’m not making the argument that emotions and feelings are necessary in order to have free will, that’s just some stuff I threw in because emotions and feelings affect how I exercise my free will.
As far as routers, I don’t know how they work so you aren’t going to get a debate from me in that department
Next when I said “I'm not claiming your computer, calculator or toaster have free will, those are your words not mine.”

Wiccan Child responded (quote) “Actually, they're yours:
You: "I define free will as the ability to make a choice."
Me: "So you're saying my computer, my calculator, my... toaster, all of these things have free will?"
You: "If you wanna make the argument that your computer has free will; that’s fine I am not gonna argue with you."

Effectively, you agreed with my conclusion -”

(reply)Question; On what planet is refusing to argue with you; the same as agreeing with you???

(quote) “you defined free will as the ability to make a choice (a vacuous and ambiguous definition, but we'll roll with it), and since computers, calculators, and toaster can makes choices, it logically follows that computers, calculators, and toasters have free will.”

(reply) You guys are the ones claiming calculators and toasters make choices on their own, I personally don’t believe they do so I wouldn’t claim they have free will.

Ken

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Wiccan Child responded (quote) “Actually, they're yours:
You: "I define free will as the ability to make a choice."
Me: "So you're saying my computer, my calculator, my... toaster, all of these things have free will?"
You: "If you wanna make the argument that your computer has free will; that’s fine I am not gonna argue with you."

Effectively, you agreed with my conclusion -”

(reply)Question; On what planet is refusing to argue with you; the same as agreeing with you???

It's called "for the sake of argument" - I pointed out that, from your definition of free will, it logically follows that toasters have free will. Since you didn't make any effort to counter the point, and instead moved on, the only motive I could infer was that you agreed with me.

If you don't, why not?

You guys are the ones claiming calculators and toasters make choices on their own, I personally don’t believe they do so I wouldn’t claim they have free will.

For the third time, I'm not claiming toasters have free will. I'm showing that your definition logically implies that they do - the point isn't that toasters have free will, but that your definition is flawed.

If you don't believe toasters have free will, then you have to change your definition.

 

[Ken-1122]

It's called "for the sake of argument" - I pointed out that, from your definition of free will, it logically follows that toasters have free will. Since you didn't make any effort to counter the point, and instead moved on, the only motive I could infer was that you agreed with me.

If you don't, why not?


For the third time, I'm not claiming toasters have free will. I'm showing that your definition logically implies that they do - the point isn't that toasters have free will, but that your definition is flawed.

If you don't believe toasters have free will, then you have to change your definition.

(reply) as I said before, toasters do not make decisions on their own thus they don't have free will

K

 

[Wiccan_Child]

(reply) as I said before, toasters do not make decisions on their own thus they don't have free will

On the contrary, they are built with circuitry that makes them make innumerable choices per second: "I choose to pop the toast out when the timer has finished".

How is that 'choice' any different from yours? Why do you have free will, and they don't? You both fit your definition, after all - and if you disagree that toasters fit the definition of free will, I welcome you to expand upon it.

 

[Ken-1122]

On the contrary, they are built with circuitry that makes them make innumerable choices per second: "I choose to pop the toast out when the timer has finished".

How is that 'choice' any different from yours? Why do you have free will, and they don't? You both fit your definition, after all - and if you disagree that toasters fit the definition of free will, I welcome you to expand upon it.

The toaster will pop the toast when the timer has finished because it has no other option; it can't choose to pop it out before the timer has finished, or not pop it out at all.

Ken

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The toaster will pop the toast when the timer has finished because it has no other option; it can't choose to pop it out before the timer has finished, or not pop it out at all.

Ken

Sure it can: it chooses to keep the toast in, until the timer finishes, at which point the toaster (and no outside source) makes the choice to pop the toast out. Anything with a pseudo-random number generator can make a 'choice', without any external input.

 

[Ken-1122]

Sure it can: it chooses to keep the toast in, until the timer finishes, at which point the toaster (and no outside source) makes the choice to pop the toast out. Anything with a pseudo-random number generator can make a 'choice', without any external input.

(reply) Does the toaster have the ability to do something else without the assistence of an outside source?

K

 

[sandwiches]

(reply) Does the toaster have the ability to do something else without the assistence of an outside source?

K

So, now you're adding "the ability to do something else with the assistance of an outside source?" That wasn't in the definition your posted. Why are you adding that?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

(reply) Does the toaster have the ability to do something else without the assistence of an outside source?

Yes: its circuitry is such that, by pure dint of its internal components, it can pop the toast out at a randomly generated time: I call it the Schrödinger toaster.

 

[Ken-1122]

So, now you're adding "the ability to do something else with the assistance of an outside source?" That wasn't in the definition your posted. Why are you adding that?

if all it can do is the same thing over and over again, that is not a choice. I defined free will as the ability to choose.

K

 

[Wiccan_Child]

if all it can do is the same thing over and over again, that is not a choice. I defined free will as the ability to choose.

K

No, you're now defining it as doing something different each time. What's to stop a being with free will from freely willing to do the same thing each time? Maybe the choice isn't in what it does, but when it does it - as per my hypothetical radioactive toaster.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, you're now defining it as doing something different each time. What's to stop a being with free will from freely willing to do the same thing each time? Maybe the choice isn't in what it does, but when it does it - as per my hypothetical radioactive toaster.

If you are only able to do the same thing over and over again; you can't not do it, and you can't do something differently, where is the choice in that?
I am defining free will as the ability to do something differently if you choose to

K

 

[Wiccan_Child]

If you are only able to do the same thing over and over again; you can't not do it, and you can't do something differently, where is the choice in that?

And what if you can do something different, but you choose not to? What if you freely choose to do the same thing over and over, for whatever reason (e.g., choosing to go to work for 8am on Monday mornings)?

I am defining free will as the ability to do something differently if you choose to

And how are you defining 'choice'? Presumably, you believe that you have "the ability to do something differently if you choose to", and that a toaster doesn't have that ability. Why? How do you know that the toaster doesn't have that ability?

Moreover, if you claim that you have this ability to "do something differently if you choose to", what is your substantiation for this claim? How do you distinguish the illusion of such an ability, from the genuine article?

 

[Ken-1122]

Wiccan Child: (quote) “And what if you can do something different, but you choose not to? What if you freely choose to do the same thing over and over, for whatever reason (e.g., choosing to go to work for 8am on Monday mornings)?”

(reply) But that isn’t the case with the toaster. The toaster isn’t an intelligent being, it is tool/machine designed for one thing and one thing only; and that’s all it does.

(quote) “And how are you defining 'choice'? Presumably, you believe that you have "the ability to do something differently if you choose to", and that a toaster doesn't have that ability. Why? How do you know that the toaster doesn't have that ability?”

(reply) I define choice as the ability to choose between 2 or more options.

(quote) “Moreover, if you claim that you have this ability to "do something differently if you choose to", what is your substantiation for this claim? How do you distinguish the illusion of such an ability, from the genuine article?”

(reply) Because I occasionally do things differently; unlike the toaster, I wasn’t designed to do the same thing over and over again.

K

 

[Wiccan_Child]

But that isn’t the case with the toaster. The toaster isn’t an intelligent being, it is tool/machine designed for one thing and one thing only; and that’s all it does.

Ah, now you're adding new terms: not only is free will the ability to choose, but it's the ability for an intelligent being to choose.

As for toasters, I disagree. Our hypothetical toaster, which pops out toast based on when a radioactive particle decays (â la Schrödinger's Cat), does so based on entirely internal factors - there is no pre-design on when the toaster 'chooses' to pop out the toast, on whether the toaster chooses to pop out barely crisp bread or black ash, etc. The radioactive element belies any pre-design, and introduces a series of toasters that do something different each time.

How, then, is that not a choice?

I define choice as the ability to choose between 2 or more options.

That's not a definition, that's a tautology. "Choice is the ability to choose" doesn't tell us anything new, any more than "Plato is Plato" does.

Because I occasionally do things differently; unlike the toaster, I wasn’t designed to do the same thing over and over again.

Nonetheless, we could create a toaster with a radioactive trigger or a pseudo-random number generator that would make it do something different each time.