Does Free Will Exist?

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Evidence of evolution? Look at the fossil record. There are many transitional species.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I know this intuitively. That is, based only on experience and on the internal perspective of the decision maker, it seems to be overwhelmingly true that there are alternate possibilities. It's why we struggle making decisions, feel guilty about certain decisions, praise ourselves for others, etc...

A strong case has to be made in order to convince me to deny this intuition and I've not yet seen one.

I disagree. I simply have to point out that your entire argument is based on "I just know it, intuitively" - that's not an argument, that's a plea. Our intuition has been routinely debunked by cold, empirical science ("The Earth is obviously flat", "The Sun obviously moves round the Earth", "solid matter is obviously continuous").

So saying that you just intuitively 'know' that there exists the possibility of alternate decisions, is tantamount to admitting you don't know at all.

 

[hairykid34]

Okay, what evidence is there that evolution is true? What scientific gathered evidence is there that evolution is true? What unshakeable proof that evolution is true is here? I don't want some crappy answer like,"look at all the species and how similiar they are" as that is an observation of traits and gives no proof that evolution is true.

read this anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Internet cut out, so my post's a lil' late

Okay, what evidence is there that evolution is true? What scientific gathered evidence is there that evolution is true? What unshakeable proof that evolution is true is here? I don't want some crappy answer like,"look at all the species and how similiar they are" as that is an observation of traits and gives no proof that evolution is true.

Twin-nested hierarchy. We can categorise living (and, indeed, dead) organisms into taxa by any number of ways (my favourites are comparative protein sequencing and ERV scanning), and each way completely parallels every other, completely unrelated way.

There is evidence of a Great World Flood. Fossils, oil, the Cambrian Explosion, etc..

Please explain how any of that constitutes evidence for a global flood.

And people lived longer as there was more oxygen in the air, pre-flood wise.

Please explain how higher concentrations of oxygen would lead people to live longer.

Many theories have been put forth, but I'm not much into that stuff as it cannot be proven scientifically(I am actually very scientific in my thoughts and what i believe in, I have no blind faith)

So you're 'very scientific' and have 'no blind faith' - yet the global flood, which you believe in, cannot be proven scientifically. Funny, that.

Jesus was fully God and fully man. Therefore, He is already in that position. Muhammed is not God, yet He gets to judge us.

Muslims do not believe Jesus to be God, so they would turn around and say that he has no more (or as much) right to judge us than Muhammed does. Moreover, can you show that Muslims actually believe that Muhammed (and not Allah) judges people?

If a leader goes against his own religion, then why should I believe in his religion? Actions speak louder than words.

Perhaps, but Muhammed didn't go against his religion - he was, at the time, building the religion, and still receiving the tenants of his faith from God.

 

[jonmichael818]

Yes. Free will exists and persons have free will.

Free will exists because for any decision, it's possible for another decision to have been made and free will exists because the person is ultimately responsible for the decision.

But we are not discussing what "possibly" could happen, we are discussing what "has" happened and what "is" happening. As for assigning responsiblity, it may be assigned to a person but what is responsible for making the person?

Free will exists because event (or physical) causation is not the only type of causation that exists. There's also mental causation and (in this case) agent causation. Here's the relevant distinction between event causation and agent causation:

Event causation is the idea that every event is caused by another event.
Agent causation is the idea that some events are caused by agents.

Questions?

What causes the agent to be an agent?

 

[jonmichael818]

Yes, free will exists. I can go out today and do whatever I want. I might be punished for some of it, but I can still go and do it. I can also believe what I want. Perhaps some might think religion would limit ones will - but if you love someone, and they ask you not to do certain things - why would you even want to go out and do them?

If by free will you mean doing anything you like with no consequences - then no that kind doesn't exist. With good reason.

This may satisfy Compatibilist free will. But, where do you get the "want" in your statement of "I can go out today and do whatever I want?"

 

[jonmichael818]

If my brain had no thought behind it, how can i trust that what i think is what is true? Why can't we all be unified psychopaths? If evolution were true, then this is a logical argument. Just because someone sees the world one way and pronounces it to be true, then gives biased information on something, then promotes that biased information as truth, then does it make it true? or is it the bandwagon effect?

If my brain had no thought behind it is a buge IF. Turns out we do have thought that result from the brain.

If by biased you mean observation and experimentation that is open to scrutiny by everyone and survives that scrutiny, then I suppose you can call that biased. Not sure you are going to convince to many people of that.

 

[Girder of Loins]

Twin-nested hierarchy. We can categorise living (and, indeed, dead) organisms into taxa by any number of ways (my favourites are comparative protein sequencing and ERV scanning), and each way completely parallels every other, completely unrelated way.


Please explain how any of that constitutes evidence for a global flood.


Please explain how higher concentrations of oxygen would lead people to live longer.


So you're 'very scientific' and have 'no blind faith' - yet the global flood, which you believe in, cannot be proven scientifically. Funny, that.


Muslims do not believe Jesus to be God, so they would turn around and say that he has no more (or as much) right to judge us than Muhammed does. Moreover, can you show that Muslims actually believe that Muhammed (and not Allah) judges people?


Perhaps, but Muhammed didn't go against his religion - he was, at the time, building the religion, and still receiving the tenants of his faith from God.

Sweet. That also shows that my God was delicate in His makings, and did not make random animals. Cool.

Oil requires extreme amounts of pressure to make. The amount of pressure water that encompassed the world would be significant enough to make oil. Extended periods of time, however, does not make pressure.

I did not mean that was the only reason. It was also for giants(which fossils have given). The reason people die of old age(mostly) is because their hearts simply "wear out." If there was a higher concentration of oxygen, cells would be able to rejuvenate better and be more efficient(kinda like when a person is rescued from fire, they are given oxygen so that their lungs and other areas needing oxygen can rejuvenate). In theory, they could live longer, and this theory is then backed up by my Bible. Circular reasoning, I know. But I choose to believe the Bible as true because of all the things that make sense in it(which are too vast to be put all on here).

Oh shoot! I got Islam mixed with Mormonism. Forgive me. However, to go as a second argument, Muhammed declared himself(and his actions) as divine. Sound familiar? Yeah, kinda sounds like the Pope. And we all know where that went(Crusades, numerous wars, innocent deaths, etc...)

Yes, He did go against his religion. He made the laws, and broke them(loving one wife over another). He had sexual relations with slaves(not so that he could get kids because his wives couldn't). This is against Torah law, which is where Islam comes from. They believe their religion is a continuation of Christianity(which is a continuation of Judaism).

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Sweet. That also shows that my God was delicate in His makings, and did not make random animals. Cool.

It also completely corresponds with what evolution predicts, making it evidence for evolution - contrary to your claim that there is no such evidence.

Oil requires extreme amounts of pressure to make. The amount of pressure water that encompassed the world would be significant enough to make oil. Extended periods of time, however, does not make pressure.

The energy released by a global flood would have flash fried the entire Earth, spontaneously vaporising. There are so many problems with the flood, it's staggering.

I did not mean that was the only reason. It was also for giants(which fossils have given).

Please, demonstrate the existence of these giants and their fossils.

The reason people die of old age(mostly) is because their hearts simply "wear out." If there was a higher concentration of oxygen, cells would be able to rejuvenate better and be more efficient(kinda like when a person is rescued from fire, they are given oxygen so that their lungs and other areas needing oxygen can rejuvenate).

That is not how biology works. If it were, we could place people in oxygen-rich chambers and watch them live for hundreds of years.

Oh shoot! I got Islam mixed with Mormonism. Forgive me. However, to go as a second argument, Muhammed declared himself(and his actions) as divine. Sound familiar? Yeah, kinda sounds like the Pope. And we all know where that went(Crusades, numerous wars, innocent deaths, etc...)

Please, show us where either Muhammed or any Pope declared themselves 'divine'.

Yes, He did go against his religion. He made the laws, and broke them(loving one wife over another). He had sexual relations with slaves(not so that he could get kids because his wives couldn't). This is against Torah law, which is where Islam comes from. They believe their religion is a continuation of Christianity(which is a continuation of Judaism).

Please, show us where Muhammed has broken laws he professed to follow.

 

[UnReAL13]

Yes, free will exists. I can go out today and do whatever I want. I might be punished for some of it, but I can still go and do it. I can also believe what I want. Perhaps some might think religion would limit ones will - but if you love someone, and they ask you not to do certain things - why would you even want to go out and do them?

If by free will you mean doing anything you like with no consequences - then no that kind doesn't exist. With good reason.

Exactly, there is always a choice to be made. Nobody can escape the existing limitations, but nobody's path is truly determined yet.

Relative free will or "compatibilist free will" is a much more practical interpretation of the whole concept. Far more sensible than the absolute free will that libertarians claim to have, and that determinists vehemently argue against.

 

[Girder of Loins]

It also completely corresponds with what evolution predicts, making it evidence for evolution - contrary to your claim that there is no such evidence.


The energy released by a global flood would have flash fried the entire Earth, spontaneously vaporising. There are so many problems with the flood, it's staggering.


Please, demonstrate the existence of these giants and their fossils.


That is not how biology works. If it were, we could place people in oxygen-rich chambers and watch them live for hundreds of years.


Please, show us where either Muhammed or any Pope declared themselves 'divine'.


Please, show us where Muhammed has broken laws he professed to follow.

Nah. It doesn't. You see, evolution does predict what future generations could look like, and it does seem like fossils "flow" from one species to another. This makes evolution entirely plausible. But when you get down to the science, its easily refutable. Genetic load, amino acids not being able to exist as amino acids for extended periods of time without "help", etc...

Oh really. Lots of energy? You see, the water was already there, therefore it had potential energy. A change from potential to kinetic needs an outside influence(God). Therefore, while still following Thermodynamic laws, no energy was actually needed except by an outside force. Remember Entropy. It is very critical. And God was the Creator, He can do anything like move water.

Well, I know the New York times just did an article on it, but I could not dig up the article on their website, sorry. But then there are historical evidence in texts, murals, paintings(well, sketches), etc... And when cross-checked with other historical evidence, they are cleared as strong evidence. They have been.

Ah yes, but microevolution must take place. You see, I am an advocate of microevolution(changes within a species. I.E dog breeds). Macroevolution I do not believe in(changes from one species to another. I.E. dog into a cat). As your cells learn to adapt to the changed environment, they would be able to grow stronger from birth, and reproduce more efficiently.

Catholics believe the Pope has the Power of Peter. Also know as Excommunication. The Pope can throw you out of Heaven. That's power if you ask me. Muhammed was the final prophet, and got to start Islam. He also allowed His actions to be sanctioned by Allah Himself(also done by the Pope, only with God). Therefore, Muhammed had power of freedom to do as he pleased. Take your wife? Allah's cool with it. I want your son as my slave. Well, Allah deems it. That's power if you ask me.

Muhammed had more than one wife. Not allowed in Torah law(no matter how many kings screwed that up, it doesn't make it right). Muhammed had seven. Which is actually more than allowed in Islamic law. He favored one wife over another(and openly admitted to it) which is not allowed within polygamist marriages. He threw out a sacred law that prohibited the impregnation of slave girls by warriors.

 

[sandwiches]

Nah. It doesn't. You see, evolution does predict what future generations could look like, and it does seem like fossils "flow" from one species to another. This makes evolution entirely plausible. But when you get down to the science, its easily refutable. Genetic load, amino acids not being able to exist as amino acids for extended periods of time without "help", etc...

I wanted to write a longer reply but I figured that since one of your claims is clearly false, I'd just start there and see where it goes from there. On your amino acids claim, please read:
Found: first amino acid on a comet - space - 17 August 2009 - New Scientist

 

[jonmichael818]

Exactly, there is always a choice to be made. Nobody can escape the existing limitations, but nobody's path is truly determined yet.

Relative free will or "compatibilist free will" is a much more practical interpretation of the whole concept. Far more sensible than the absolute free will that libertarians claim to have, and that determinists vehemently argue against.

See the problem I have with free will is that you can define it however you like, but ultimately those definitions fall into one of two categories.
1)There is no proof that such a thing exists.
2)It is nothing more than determinism, however complex it may be.

So while compatibilism may seem more practical or sensible, and may have its uses, it seems even more logical to just call things like they are. As far as we know, we live in a deterministic universe and that includes emergent properties such as free will.

 

[jonmichael818]

But when you get down to the science, its easily refutable.

Easily refutable, thats a good one.

Ah yes, but microevolution must take place. You see, I am an advocate of microevolution(changes within a species. I.E dog breeds).

If microevolution takes place over a very long period of time, guess what you get? The original will look nothing like what it will look like in a billion years.

Macroevolution I do not believe in(changes from one species to another. I.E. dog into a cat).

I don't think anybody thinks a dog would turn into a cat. Evolution does not work that way.

As your cells learn to adapt to the changed environment, they would be able to grow stronger from birth, and reproduce more efficiently.

Are you suggesting that this process would take place in one lifetime?
If so, it does not happen that fast.
However, life expectancy has risen dramatically since the dawn of man.

With the exception of Methusalah and his family lineage of course.LOL

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I posted my response to GoL via PM... still waiting for a response

EDIT: It's only been 12 hours? Feels like days... that can't be right, surely...
EDIT2: Yep, 11:27am. Mildly troubling

 

[hairykid34]

on the subject of free will; it has been scientific proven that we do not live in a deterministic universe (if you are interested*, research: chaos theory, event horizon, quantum probability theory and quantum mechanics e.g turbulance, weather patterns, random decay of uranium) (fyi i cant link yet). This means that nothing is taking away our free will and our actions cannot be predicted beyond a certain (relatively short) timeframe.

*if you are really interested read 'the grand design' by stephen hawking

 

[ThePresbyteers]

on the subject of free will; it has been scientific proven that we do not live in a deterministic universe (if you are interested*, research: chaos theory, event horizon, quantum probability theory and quantum mechanics e.g turbulance, weather patterns, random decay of uranium) (fyi i cant link yet). This means that nothing is taking away our free will and our actions cannot be predicted beyond a certain (relatively short) timeframe.

*if you are really interested read 'the grand design' by stephen hawking

You left out the wormhole. We have already done what we ~did~ tomorrow. We're in slow motion, today, catching up.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Yes.

i believe I can choose to live or die today, can you have any more freedom than that?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

on the subject of free will; it has been scientific proven that we do not live in a deterministic universe (if you are interested*, research: chaos theory, event horizon, quantum probability theory and quantum mechanics e.g turbulance, weather patterns, random decay of uranium) (fyi i cant link yet). This means that nothing is taking away our free will and our actions cannot be predicted beyond a certain (relatively short) timeframe.

*if you are really interested read 'the grand design' by stephen hawking

To be fair, chaos theory doesn't mean we live in an indeterministic universe, just that the future gets exponentially harder to predict the further we project. It's entirely possible to have a deterministic, chaotic universe.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

Yes.

I believe I can choose to live or die today, can you have any more freedom than that?

While we have the inability to choose the Gift of Faith on our own we also have the inability to hold our breath to die. Remember that God designed our bodies in a certain way. You'll just pass out on your free "willed breath holding" and find yourself living again upon awakening.

Remember folks, Traditional-Calvinism doesn't deny free will. Hyper-Calvinism does. Hyper-Calvinism is a cult according to the Traditional Calvinism. BIG difference.

Calvinism is Gospel minus Catholic false traditions