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Does Free Will Exist?

sandwiches

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Calvinism is Gospel minus Catholic false traditions

Every sect of Christianity thinks they're the closest to the 'real' Gospel or the 'real' meaning of the Bible. Considering that they all arbitrarily select those standards, this is just one more reason not to trust any of them.
 
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ThePresbyteers

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Every sect of Christianity thinks they're the closest to the 'real' Gospel or the 'real' meaning of the Bible. Considering that they all arbitrarily select those standards, this is just one more reason not to trust any of them.
Seems that way.
I just left a Catholic Forum and they were driving me insane with all their weird added false traditions which they claim is from God. They admit I'm Hellbound due to myself not being blessed by a Pope or their gods.
 
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ThePresbyteers

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---Considering that they all arbitrarily select those standards, this is just one more reason not to trust any of them.---
I sat with a monk, the head of the largest Buddhist sect in China (at a certain time period) and the Taoist stories I heard are quite similar to some Calvinist beliefs. Both believe on what God is and how He works. Most if not all Calvinist would disagree with this but the head of that sect was the closest I could find to ask such personal questions. Calvinism is the closest to proper understanding of the Gospel one can get. Traditional Calvinism got many things right.

Arminianism, open theist and romanism is false gospel for sure.
 
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sandwiches

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Seems that way.
I just left a Catholic Forum and they were driving me insane with all their weird added false traditions which they claim is from God. They admit I'm Hellbound due to myself not being blessed by a Pope or their gods.

I've been told by Christians of just about every sect that my soul is lost. The most aggressive ones I've encountered have been Southern Baptists and Pentecostals. So, again, Catholics aren't unique at fire and brimstone rhetoric.

I sat with a monk, the head of the largest Buddhist sect in China (at a certain time period) and the Taoist stories I heard are quite similar to some Calvinist beliefs. Both believe on what God is and how He works. Most if not all Calvinist would disagree with this but the head of that sect was the closest I could find to ask such personal questions. Calvinism is the closest to proper understanding of the Gospel one can get. Traditional Calvinism got many things right.

Arminianism, open theist and romanism is false gospel for sure.
Catholics feel that they are closer to the true meaning of the Bible than Calvinists and protestants, in general. So, like I said, almost every claim you made has been made by members of every sect of Christianity, and even other religions. It's no surprise that you find your religion to make the most sense and be the 'truest,' otherwise you wouldn't believe, presumably.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I sat with a monk, the head of the largest Buddhist sect in China (at a certain time period) and the Taoist stories I heard are quite similar to some Calvinist beliefs. Both believe on what God is and how He works. Most if not all Calvinist would disagree with this but the head of that sect was the closest I could find to ask such personal questions. Calvinism is the closest to proper understanding of the Gospel one can get. Traditional Calvinism got many things right.

Arminianism, open theist and romanism is false gospel for sure.
I daresay those three groups would beg to differ, with as much conviction and certainty as you. Isn't the whole point of Christianity to be inclusive in salvation, not exclusive? Don't Catholics and all the rest, by believing in salvation through Christ, not count as 'real' Christians?
 
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ThePresbyteers

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I daresay those three groups would beg to differ, with as much conviction and certainty as you. Isn't the whole point of Christianity to be inclusive in salvation, not exclusive? Don't Catholics and all the rest, by believing in salvation through Christ, not count as 'real' Christians?
I believe there are many real Christians. I believe most denomination have developed a system over time to condition and train a mind to think in a certain way. It's very much like I-ching, astrology and many conditioning arts. What I'm saying is the some developed dogmas show certain patterns that will only show up during long continuous practice. So, if the Catholics study, study, study, practice and practice, some over long periods of they they will see patterns and develop their lives around those patterns. Most defend their religion and become very defensive without seeing the whole overall picture. That goes for any religion or cults. Even Calvinism shows those patterns. It's best to find the system that will show you the correct patterns and Calvinism shows the Gospel in a more understandable dogma and pattern. Most don't realize that those patterns are design to send them to the dark world.
 
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ThePresbyteers

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How can you be sure your patterns and dogma isn't one of those?
While collecting those patterns, I effected electronic equipment at will. While not expecting those effects, it was including in my training. Extra sensory abilities or ESP comes with the package. I'm working on willing a candle to die out which I seen done by another. Most call it occultic but I call it process in understanding energy and life. Most ignore such things. Some call them the devil and Satan. It comes with my healing journey as a healer. Of course I would heal in the name of Jesus in case some reject what I said. I transfer healing, not heal. I guide the healings. I use the source of healing but it doesn't come through me.

So my patterns and dogma are my own own journey I do alone.
 
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jonmichael818

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on the subject of free will; it has been scientific proven that we do not live in a deterministic universe (if you are interested*, research: chaos theory, event horizon, quantum probability theory and quantum mechanics e.g turbulance, weather patterns, random decay of uranium) (fyi i cant link yet). This means that nothing is taking away our free will and our actions cannot be predicted beyond a certain (relatively short) timeframe.

*if you are really interested read 'the grand design' by stephen hawking
First of all you are assuming that we have a complete understanding of physics, what is uncertain to us now does not mean it will always be so.

Quantum Electrodynamics is one of (if not the most) the most accurate theories to date, and this is due to the success of combining quantum mechanics with special relativity. If we are able to come up with a complete quantum theory of gravity our picture of the universe will become much more clear and predictable.

And as Wiccan_Child pointed out, it is possible to have a deterministic chaotic universe.

Furthermore, even if our choices were the result of true randomness that still does not give us free will. Random is precisely that, random, which means we would have no control over our actions or choices.
 
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jonmichael818

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Yes.

i believe I can choose to live or die today, can you have any more freedom than that?
Perhaps, but in making such a decision, why would you ultimately decide on one or the other? There is a reason, and it was that reason that caused the decision.
 
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hairykid34

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To be fair, chaos theory doesn't mean we live in an indeterministic universe, just that the future gets exponentially harder to predict the further we project. It's entirely possible to have a deterministic, chaotic universe.

how do you reason that?

it gets harder to predict the state of a system because we can't predict the state of a particle, only the probability that it will be in any one state. obviously this principle extends to the systems that are our bodies.
 
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jonmichael818

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how do you reason that?

it gets harder to predict the state of a system because we can't predict the state of a particle, only the probability that it will be in any one state. obviously this principle extends to the systems that are our bodies.
This explains it better than I can:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions; an effect which is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions...yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general. This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.-Wikipedia/ChaosTheory

Also the unpredictability seems to stem from how accurate we are able to measure the initial conditions of a given system. In principle if we were able to have the technology to make exact measurements and had the exact parameters, then the unpredictable could become predicatable.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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how do you reason that?

it gets harder to predict the state of a system because we can't predict the state of a particle, only the probability that it will be in any one state. obviously this principle extends to the systems that are our bodies.
That is not what is meant by chaos theory. A system is chaotic if small changes to its initial conditions create large, non-trivial, and effectively unpredictable changes to its long-term outcome. Weather is chaotic because a small change in initial conditions don't do something trivial like make the wind a bit stronger, but change that local breeze into precipitation and hurricanes.

There's a lot to chaos theory, but that's basically it. You can have a completely predictable system, programmed into a computer, and you can mathematically predict what's going to happen - but it's still chaotic.

YouTube - Double Pendulum

Completely predictable - the mechanics aren't anything too tricky - but it's still chaotic.
 
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philosophik

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Do you think free will exists?

Yes, if freewill is defined as the ability to choose between two or more realizable alternatives.

If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?

Cause and effect doesn't determine everything. While causes determine the effects of non-sentient objects, causes do not necessarily determine the effects of sentient beings--the causes only influence the will of sentience. In sentient beings, once the will has been influenced it is free to produce desired effects that are realizable. In other words, causes do not necessarily determine the effects produced by sentient beings, causes can also facilitate freewill in these beings, in this case freewill will then determine the effect.

If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.

Suppose I got hungry. That cause will determine me to eat. So I go to the fridge and see my two favorite foods, food A and food B, which I like equally. I pull them out and set them on the counter. They are equal portions, and have equal preparation times. While hunger being the cause, determines that I will eat, that cause only influences my will to choose. So when I choose food A, hunger as the cause did not determine that effect, because I could have easily chosen food B seeing how everything about it was equal to food A except for what kind of food it was.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Suppose I got hungry. That cause will determine me to eat. So I go to the fridge and see my two favorite foods, food A and food B, which I like equally. I pull them out and set them on the counter. They are equal portions, and have equal preparation times. While hunger being the cause, determines that I will eat, that cause only influences my will to choose. So when I choose food A, hunger as the cause did not determine that effect, because I could have easily chosen food B seeing how everything about it was equal to food A except for what kind of food it was.
Are you saying that remains true in a Mary's Room style scenario. i.e. a doctor of brain science knows all about your brain and it's appetite as well as hunger. Does he not know a mechanism that causes you to choose one of the two foods even if you and other ordinary mortals are unaware of it?
 
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ThePresbyteers

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Give the steak to a horse and give hay to a tiger. Neither will care to eat them.

Give the steak to the tiger and the hay to the horse, they will gobble gobble gobble.

Sometimes we ask whats the meaning of free will regarding to your spirit.

The above is a natural free will. You have natural free will but with always go back to your own desires you're born with.
 
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philosophik

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Are you saying that remains true in a Mary's Room style scenario. i.e. a doctor of brain science knows all about your brain and it's appetite as well as hunger. Does he not know a mechanism that causes you to choose one of the two foods even if you and other ordinary mortals are unaware of it?

Not if an absolutely discernible mechanism does not exist. For instance, suppose the following day you are placed in the exact same scenario. But on that day you choose food B. And let's suppose this doctor can only view your brain function, and has no idea that there are actually two different types of food. Let's call the the brain activity that occurred when you chose food A, brain function A. If brain function A also occurred on the second day, the doctor would not be able to discern a distinguishable mechanism for you choosing food A, as opposed to food B. It would appear to him you made the same choice.

Let's suppose however, that there is a difference in brain function between the two days, if everything you do on both days is identical up until you make the choice, the doctor would not notice a difference until the choice is made. So on a third day, if you are in an identical scenario as the first two days, there is no way the doctor would be able to determine conclusively which food you will choose until you make the choice. Because brain function A is identical to brain function B up until the choice is made.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Are you saying that remains true in a Mary's Room style scenario. i.e. a doctor of brain science knows all about your brain and it's appetite as well as hunger. Does he not know a mechanism that causes you to choose one of the two foods even if you and other ordinary mortals are unaware of it?
Depends on how the brain works. If there's some mechanism that involves true spontaneity and randomness (perhaps some sort of quantum 'switch' within synapses, or exotic timers using C14), then the doctor can't predict what will happen with complete certainty. It might not be free will as traditionally interpreted, but it still prevents (internal) omniscience.
 
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sandwiches

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Are you saying that remains true in a Mary's Room style scenario. i.e. a doctor of brain science knows all about your brain and it's appetite as well as hunger. Does he not know a mechanism that causes you to choose one of the two foods even if you and other ordinary mortals are unaware of it?

Then not everything was equal. Simple.
 
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jonmichael818

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So when I choose food A, hunger as the cause did not determine that effect, because I could have easily chosen food B seeing how everything about it was equal to food A except for what kind of food it was.
So what made you choose food A?
 
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