Does Free Will Exist?

[jonmichael818]

Do you think free will exists?
If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?
If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.

 

[Gracchus]

Do you think free will exists?

Some people have to believe that there is such a thing as free will, but I choose not to believe it.

 

[jonmichael818]

Some people have to believe that there is such a thing as free will, but I choose not to believe it.

I agree.

 

[UnReAL13]

This is actually something I've been debating on another forum which I've brought up here also. If all neural decisions made by the conscious mind register as brain activity in the sub-conscious beforehand, are we ever actually "free" to make these decisions? Are we all behaving based on our hard-wired determinism, simply being conscious minds aware of the process?

I think this all hinges on whether or not the sub-conscious is truly "separate" from the conscious mind. We indulge and embellish in our sub-conscious constantly throughout the day without truly realizing it. We daydream, create imagery, meditate, etc. These are all instances when our conscious minds access our sub-conscious thought process. It's only when we're asleep that we are fully embraced in raw sub-conscious, and if we have a lucid dream then we become truly "free" in the purest sense of the word.

So it becomes a question of whether or not we're in control over our sub-conscious selves, and how deep does the connection run between conscious awareness and sub-conscious brain activity. I'm inclined to believe that there's some sort of "balance" between free will and determinism. We have deterministic genetic predisposition, but at the same time we can "choose" which path to follow.

It also depends on what is truly considered to be "inevitable" in someone's life. Inevitable simply means "unavoidable". As a species we have become more consciously aware of our surroundings, our environment, and certain situations have become more "evitable". We are able to "avoid" more deterministic fates than previous generations as we constantly learn and adapt.

I think free will is an ability that can be acquired and finely tuned, and might be an ability that humans have yet to fully embrace. The real underlying question is how much of our minds and our sense of "self" remains contained within the raw sub-conscious, and how much of an effect this portion of us actually has on our decision making process.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Compatiblist speaking.

Do you think free will exists?

Given a certain definition of it then yes.

If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?

Why should that reduce my freedom. I did something freely is I was not compelled (against my will) to do it. So even if I was caused to like ice cream, because I chose it without compulsion (I may have been caused, but not against my will), I did so freely.

If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.

Some people say that certain quantum mechanical phenomena are uncaused, but thats not really important to the compatiblist.

 

[quatona]

Do you think free will exists?

Could you define your use of "free will" for purposes of this thread, please?

 

[UnReAL13]

Free will does exist, and neuroscientists may have found its location within the human brain:

Possible site of free will found in brain - life - 07 May 2009 - New Scientist

The parietal cortex. This is where our volition is supposed to occur.

 

[Resha Caner]

Do you think free will exists?

If it doesn't exist, then I'll forgive you for asking the question, since you couldn't help yourself - just as you must forgive me since I can't help but believe in it.

 

[Gracchus]

If it doesn't exist, then I'll forgive you for asking the question, since you couldn't help yourself - just as you must forgive me since I can't help but believe in it.

And you'll have to forgive me for not forgiving you, because ... Well, you will get the idea if you want to, and could not do otherwise.

 

[jayem]

Absolute free will doesn't exist. If exactly the same state of neuronal activity could be reproduced in a subject's brain, he would exhibit the same behavior in response to the same stimulus. But the chances of this happening are vanishingly remote. The neural circuitry of the brain is constantly being modified--even during sleep. So the brain is never exactly the same, and neither is how we process information and make decisions. This gives the appearance of free will. But it's a relative free will.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Compatibilism is ok.

Libertarian free will makes no sense. Decisions can't be determined, they can't be arbitrary/random either. And yet, you both need a connection between the decision maker and the decision - that would mean a causal connection - and a multiple possible outcomes. IOW, it is a total mess.

If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?

In compatibilist free will, IMO it matters whether *you*, and especially the mental parts of *you* such as your desires, have a significant impact on what eventually happens. If you can act in accordance with your desires, then that is a free will choice. If you can't then it is not, in fact you might have to act against your will.

A good litmus test is the consideration if a (counterfactual) different desire, would have lead to different actions: "I could have acted differently, had I only wanted to."

If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.

Well, there is this quantum stuff. And radioactive decay. And while I am not that big on science, I know that the term true randomness is constantly heard in connection with these two.

However, when it comes to the makro world and thoughts about free will etc, I think these are negligible.

 

[Bushido216]

Do you think free will exists?
If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?
If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.

I'm told it doesn't.

 

[jonmichael818]

I think this all hinges on whether or not the sub-conscious is truly "separate" from the conscious mind. We indulge and embellish in our sub-conscious constantly throughout the day without truly realizing it. We daydream, create imagery, meditate, etc. These are all instances when our conscious minds access our sub-conscious thought process. It's only when we're asleep that we are fully embraced in raw sub-conscious, and if we have a lucid dream then we become truly "free" in the purest sense of the word.

So it becomes a question of whether or not we're in control over our sub-conscious selves, and how deep does the connection run between conscious awareness and sub-conscious brain activity. I'm inclined to believe that there's some sort of "balance" between free will and determinism. We have deterministic genetic predisposition, but at the same time we can "choose" which path to follow.

I agree there is still much to learn regarding consciousness. Whether consciousness is an emergent property that rises from physical activities of the brain(as sort of a projector of consciousness), or the brain is a receptor of consciousness from some external source. Either way I do not think that free will can emerge.
If consciousness comes as a result of brain activity, then your thoughts, actions and dreams are simply the result of your genetics and your various environmental experiences, all causally related. If your consciousness comes from some external source, we have to determine what that source is. If it is some kind of "metaphysical you" inhabiting a physical body, than it is still you that is being determined by some forces or energy. I say that you are still determined because those forces or energies have to be either predictable/certain or unpredictable/uncertain. If they are predictable, then they are deterministic. If they are unpredictable, then you still do not have free will because:1)they may only be unpredictable do to our current lack of knowledge, 2)if they are truly random then that would mean we are at the mercy of whatever random signal we receive and would not be apart of our control in any way.

It also depends on what is truly considered to be "inevitable" in someone's life. Inevitable simply means "unavoidable". As a species we have become more consciously aware of our surroundings, our environment, and certain situations have become more "evitable". We are able to "avoid" more deterministic fates than previous generations as we constantly learn and adapt.

Avoidability and evitability do not necessarily equate to free will. While we as humans can increase our evitability as we evolve, things are still determined. We learn to avoid things based on our previous experiences, and we may fine tune this evitablity with fantastic precision. Even if we had the ability to manipulate all the laws of physics, it would happen as a result of causallity.

 

[jonmichael818]

Why should that reduce my freedom. I did something freely is I was not compelled (against my will) to do it. So even if I was caused to like ice cream, because I chose it without compulsion (I may have been caused, but not against my will), I did so freely.

Your "will" is formed by prior conditions: genetics and environment. Therefore, you were determined to like ice cream, no free will involved.

 

[jonmichael818]

Could you define your use of "free will" for purposes of this thread, please?

Ok I think this should do:

FREE WILL- freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.-FreeWill/Merriam-Webster.com

 

[jonmichael818]

Free will does exist, and neuroscientists may have found its location within the human brain:

Possible site of free will found in brain - life - 07 May 2009 - New Scientist

The parietal cortex. This is where our volition is supposed to occur.

This study actually shows that volition is the result of neuronal activity in the brain. Neuronal activity fires off according to your genetic makeup and how your life experiences have formed your neural net.
Two telling quotes from the article:

Free will, or at least the place where we decide to act...

"I can't think of any way you can have conscious experience other than as a result of neurons in your brain firing."

The title of the article referring to free will was probably just to catch peoples attention.

 

[jonmichael818]

In compatibilist free will, IMO it matters whether *you*, and especially the mental parts of *you* such as your desires, have a significant impact on what eventually happens. If you can act in accordance with your desires, then that is a free will choice. If you can't then it is not, in fact you might have to act against your will.

A good litmus test is the consideration if a (counterfactual) different desire, would have lead to different actions: "I could have acted differently, had I only wanted to."

The problem is, your will and desires come from your genetics and environmental experiences, no free will involved.

Well, there is this quantum stuff. And radioactive decay. And while I am not that big on science, I know that the term true randomness is constantly heard in connection with these two.

However, when it comes to the makro world and thoughts about free will etc, I think these are negligible.

The quantum and random stuff just gets us in more trouble when talking about free will. If decisions are the result of some random quantum fluctuation, then it was not us that did it at all. Also those random fluctuations may cause us to do something that has nothing to do or is not consistant with what we call our will. For all we know a fluctuation could cause us to go committ mass murder out of the blue.

 

[quatona]

Ok I think this should do:

Thanks. I have a better idea now, but I still have problems understanding this concept.

FREE WILL- freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.-FreeWill/Merriam-Webster.com

(I´ll skip the "divine intervention" part because I am not a theist.)

I notice that this is a definition that wraps the crucial part into an ex negativo. If "choices" aren´t determined by prior causes - by what are they determined?
Personally, I find the idea that my choices aren´t determined by prior causes quite scary. Au contraire, I like to think that my choices are the result of my experiences, my thoughts, my considerations, my anticipations, my feelings. The idea that there is some instance in me that generates "choices" for me independently of those causes is not only uncomfortable but also makes me feel very "unfree": if my will is free (to make choices by whatever mysterious mechanism that defies causation), I certainly am not.

 

[quatona]

Free will does exist, and neuroscientists may have found its location within the human brain:

Possible site of free will found in brain - life - 07 May 2009 - New Scientist

The parietal cortex. This is where our volition is supposed to occur.

To me it seems that the mere fact that the place where our volition is supposed to occur can be identified (and possibly even the mechanism can be explained) is not exactly suggesting the conclusion that we are free in our decisions. Rather the opposite.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Your "will" is formed by prior conditions: genetics and environment. Therefore, you were determined to like ice cream, no free will involved.

Note that a compatiblist thinks that free will is compatible with a deterministic universe.