Does Free Will Exist?

[Lord Emsworth]

The problem is, your will and desires come from your genetics and environmental experiences, no free will involved.

There are two options. Either your will and desires come from somewhere, or they don't come from somewhere. The latter just leads to randomness, or arbitraryness if you wish, though. After all, there is no cause, there is no reason, there is no because for why your will and desires are what they are. They just are. Likewise with the decisions themselves.


And as a second response:

The problem is, your will and desires come from your genetics and environmental experiences, no free will involved.

That is not a problem, at least not in the case of environmental experiences. You will and desires could have been different, given different environmental experiences.


And always keep in mind, compatibilist free will != libertarian free will.

Compatibilsim is about counterfactual alternate possibilities, whereas libertarian free will chases after (the phantom of) actual alternate possibilities.

The quantum and random stuff just gets us in more trouble when talking about free will. If decisions are the result of some random quantum fluctuation, then it was not us that did it at all. Also those random fluctuations may cause us to do something that has nothing to do or is not consistant with what we call our will. For all we know a fluctuation could cause us to go committ mass murder out of the blue.

I have to agree. It is a dud.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

According the the compatiblist the statement "Either free will or determinism, but not both" is a false dichotomy.

 

[Rex Lex]

According the the compatiblist the statement "Either free will or determinism, but not both" is a false dichotomy.

The scriptures determine it pretty clearly:

"And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17

 

[Lord Emsworth]

According the the compatiblist the statement "Either free will or determinism, but not both" is a false dichotomy.

And not just according to the compatibilist. It is a false dichotomy. Period. Indeterminism != free will.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Water of life?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Water of life?

aqua vitae - Wiktionary

 

[AlexBP]

Do you think free will exists?
If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?
If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.

To the first question, yes. And I don't particularly care how free will is defined. I'll defend any reasonable definition.

To the second and third questions, I don't believe that cause and effect determine everything. As St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out:

The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

So, since the existence of the entire universe requires something which is not the effect of anything else, plainly cause and effect is not in itself sufficient to explain everything within the universe.

More directly, related to the issue of humans having free will, I base my position on what I see. You say that "genetics and environment" determine the structure and function of the brain. I don't think they do. Suppose I agree for the sake of argument, that I have a genetic disposition to enjoy eating sweet things. Well, I have two chocolate bars left over from the office Christmas Party on the desk right next to me, yet I can still choose not to eat them. In fact, I am choosing to do exactly that. There are any number of reasons why a human being might choose to act contrary to a disposition towards eating sweets. He's on a diet, or he wants to save them for another day, or he's fasting for religious reasons, or he's trying to prove a point about free will, etc...

We might phrase the problem like this. Here is decision number one:

1: Eat chocolate or don't eat chocolate.

Clearly I can make either choice. If you tell me that my motivation to eat the chocolate results from genetic predisposition to like sugar, then I still have to make the decision whether to follow the predisposition:

2: Follow genetic disposition to eat sugar or don't follow genetic disposition to eat sugar.

Now maybe you'll claim that I'm only disobeying my genetic predisposition because ny neurons have been arranged in such a format as to want to prove a point about free will. In that case, I must make the decision whether to make that point about free will or not.

3: Prove a point about free will by not eating chocolate, or eat chocolate and thereby fail to prove a point about free will.

And so forth. At every level, I must make a decision between two different options. Therefore, no matter how many levels we climb in this chain of argument, I still have free will.

 

[jonmichael818]

So, since the existence of the entire universe requires something which is not the effect of anything else, plainly cause and effect is not in itself sufficient to explain everything within the universe.

This assumes that god exists, which is not something that is known with absolute certainty. There are many theories that posit the observable universe is not all there is, just one example is multiverse. Lets assume that god does exist(for the sake of argument).
Let me ask you a question: do you believe god is omniscient?

More directly, related to the issue of humans having free will, I base my position on what I see. You say that "genetics and environment" determine the structure and function of the brain. I don't think they do. Suppose I agree for the sake of argument, that I have a genetic disposition to enjoy eating sweet things. Well, I have two chocolate bars left over from the office Christmas Party on the desk right next to me, yet I can still choose not to eat them. In fact, I am choosing to do exactly that. There are any number of reasons why a human being might choose to act contrary to a disposition towards eating sweets. He's on a diet, or he wants to save them for another day, or he's fasting for religious reasons, or he's trying to prove a point about free will, etc...

We might phrase the problem like this. Here is decision number one:

1: Eat chocolate or don't eat chocolate.

Clearly I can make either choice. If you tell me that my motivation to eat the chocolate results from genetic predisposition to like sugar, then I still have to make the decision whether to follow the predisposition:

2: Follow genetic disposition to eat sugar or don't follow genetic disposition to eat sugar.

Now maybe you'll claim that I'm only disobeying my genetic predisposition because ny neurons have been arranged in such a format as to want to prove a point about free will. In that case, I must make the decision whether to make that point about free will or not.

3: Prove a point about free will by not eating chocolate, or eat chocolate and thereby fail to prove a point about free will.

And so forth. At every level, I must make a decision between two different options. Therefore, no matter how many levels we climb in this chain of argument, I still have free will.

Still no free will. The availability of choices, and the outcome(decision) does not equate to free will. As you said:

There are any number of reasons why a human being might choose to act contrary to a disposition towards eating sweets. He's on a diet, or he wants to save them for another day, or he's fasting for religious reasons, or he's trying to prove a point about free will, etc...

You just listed the very reasons why a decision would have been made, in each case you listed those would be the causes to the effect(decision.) A genetic predisposition is not the only thing that determines ones behavior, I also said environmental conditions determine also(i.e. family upbringing, freinds, social groups etc.)

Lets say a person chose not to eat the sweets because he was on a diet. Why is he on a diet? He needs to lose weight for health reasons, or he wants to look good. The health reasons are there because of his genetics or because he was frivolous in the way he lived his life, perhaps he contracted some disease. His reasons for wanting to look good could be because he wants to attract a mate, raise his self esteem, thinks highly of the way others look at him etc. And each of those reasons also have reasons. All a result of causality, no free will.

 

[jonmichael818]

According the the compatiblist the statement "Either free will or determinism, but not both" is a false dichotomy.

I am a bit confused about compatiblism? I know Dan Dennett(popular philosopher) talks a lot about compatiblism, but in the end it just seems to me to be complex determinism. Could you expand on the idea a bit?

 

[jonmichael818]

And not just according to the compatibilist. It is a false dichotomy. Period. Indeterminism != free will.

Same question, I am a bit confused about the specifics of compatibilism, could you expand on the idea a bit?

 

[GrayAngel]

No. Free will is not Biblical, and I no longer believe in it.

God is all knowing and all powerful, how then could we have the power to shape our own destinies? God knew from the view start the consequences of His actions in shaping the world. If He had done something even slightly different, the world would be completely different. God was well aware of this, and so He caused everything that would happen.

What about us could possibly so free from the world around us that we could act independent from it's influences? Just stop and think about it. God gave us our biology, our environments, and our experiences. In other words, God is responsible for both nature AND nurture.

The word PREDESTINATION is found all over the Bible. The only response free-will proponents have is to ignore, or to explain away the obvious message that scripture is trying to tell them.

In the beginning, God chose us. It was HIS decision, not ours, that led us to Him. But what free-will tells us is that WE are the ones who chose GOD. How could we, when everything we are was shaped by God's hand?

Free will is nothing but an illusion to those of us who don't know the future God has already planned for us. It cannot exist. It is impossible.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Do you think free will exists?

No.

If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?

If it did exist, we could still have a deterministic universe.

If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.

Radioactive decay.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

No. Free will is not Biblical, and I no longer believe in it.

God is all knowing and all powerful, how then could we have the power to shape our own destinies? God knew from the view start the consequences of His actions in shaping the world. If He had done something even slightly different, the world would be completely different. God was well aware of this, and so He caused everything that would happen.

What about us could possibly so free from the world around us that we could act independent from it's influences? Just stop and think about it. God gave us our biology, our environments, and our experiences. In other words, God is responsible for both nature AND nurture.

The word PREDESTINATION is found all over the Bible. The only response free-will proponents have is to ignore, or to explain away the obvious message that scripture is trying to tell them.

In the beginning, God chose us. It was HIS decision, not ours, that led us to Him. But what free-will tells us is that WE are the ones who chose GOD. How could we, when everything we are was shaped by God's hand?

Free will is nothing but an illusion to those of us who don't know the future God has already planned for us. It cannot exist. It is impossible.

Doesn't that mean that God himself determines who's going to Hell? How does he determine between good robots and bad robots, if he's the one dictating their behaviour?

 

[GrayAngel]

Doesn't that mean that God himself determines who's going to Hell? How does he determine between good robots and bad robots, if he's the one dictating their behaviour?

If God is the one in charge, unless He just put a blindfold over His eyes and let things happen on their own, He is the one responsible. But as someone already pointed out, even if it was random, free will is still impossible.

Free will cannot exist. The only option then is to determine what is responsible for destiny. Either is was random chance, or it was God.

If you want to debate what this makes of God, that's a different discussion. Personally, I think of God as being like an author. All good stories need heroes and villains, and a struggle between the two sides. And isn't it God's right to choose what to do with His own creation?

It's not that God WANTS people to go to Hell, but it's the best option. When people God chooses go to Heaven, they will live forever in perfect paradise, all the more grateful for it because we have seen what suffering is like.

But Hell exists as a place for people to spend eternity away from God. It exists to bring right to the wrong, and to keep the ungodly from corrupting Heaven.

 

[Resha Caner]

No. Free will is not Biblical, and I no longer believe in it.

As has been noted earlier, will requires a context before one can decide if it is free or not. It is not an absolute yes or no. But, if free will is not Biblical, then how does one explain verses like Matt 23:37?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

I am a compatibilist. I define free will as conscious, voluntary choice. What we do is not caused directly by our genetics or environment, but rather by our own thoughts, feelings, desires, etc, though of course these factors have causes of their own. We can't choose otherwise when making a voluntary choice because we wouldn't want to. Only when we are coerced do we become mere slaves to external forces.

 

[GrayAngel]

As has been noted earlier, will requires a context before one can decide if it is free or not. It is not an absolute yes or no. But, if free will is not Biblical, then how does one explain verses like Matt 23:37?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

It puts God through much heartache to see His people deny Him, but He is not powerless to stop it.

This verse says that God LONGED to gather them up, it doesn't say that He was trying. Rather, God was patiently waiting for the right time.

The WILLING part simply means that the people didn't want to come to God. Why not? Is it because their wills trumped over God's power and their physical limitations to CHOOSE to resist God? No.

Everything we do is determined by something apart from ourselves. Even when we seem to do something that seems "out of character," it's because a given set of circumstances led to that action.

I'm curious how you would respond to this verse:

Exodus 9:12 - But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

 

[jonmichael818]

No.


If it did exist, we could still have a deterministic universe.

How so?

Radioactive decay.

Ok, you got me.
But two things regarding the random:
1)This may be due to our current lack of understanding. I know it is pure speculation, but it is worth the thought.
2)How does this randomness relate to free will?

 

[jonmichael818]

I am a compatibilist. I define free will as conscious, voluntary choice. What we do is not caused directly by our genetics or environment, but rather by our own thoughts, feelings, desires, etc, though of course these factors have causes of their own. We can't choose otherwise when making a voluntary choice because we wouldn't want to. Only when we are coerced do we become mere slaves to external forces.

I still think compatibilism is just complex determinism. It ultimately does not explain how we can have free will as I defined it earlier in the thread.

FREE WILL-freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.]-Merriam-Webster/Freewill[/u]

 

[jonmichael818]

No. Free will is not Biblical, and I no longer believe in it.

God is all knowing and all powerful, how then could we have the power to shape our own destinies? God knew from the view start the consequences of His actions in shaping the world. If He had done something even slightly different, the world would be completely different. God was well aware of this, and so He caused everything that would happen.

What about us could possibly so free from the world around us that we could act independent from it's influences? Just stop and think about it. God gave us our biology, our environments, and our experiences. In other words, God is responsible for both nature AND nurture.

The word PREDESTINATION is found all over the Bible. The only response free-will proponents have is to ignore, or to explain away the obvious message that scripture is trying to tell them.

In the beginning, God chose us. It was HIS decision, not ours, that led us to Him. But what free-will tells us is that WE are the ones who chose GOD. How could we, when everything we are was shaped by God's hand?

Free will is nothing but an illusion to those of us who don't know the future God has already planned for us. It cannot exist. It is impossible.

I suppose at this point we would have to prove whether god exists or not, and whether he is actually omniscient.