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You are making things up again. The "doctrine of salvation" does not (in and of itself) lead anyone to salvation. How would a lost person even know where to find it?Oh, no I haven't. You're the one who challenged my explanation of saving faith. And you still don't seem to get it or even understand it.
Well, if that, specifically, is the topic, it's bogus, because there are a whole lot of doctrines in the Bible. And NONE will lead to salvation, except the doctrine of salvation.
Here you go.If the Bible says He went to Hades before He died, then there should be a single verse or passage that says so.
The numerous and complicated facts are fine, just unnecessary.Anyone who denies these facts is irrational.
The numerous and complicated facts are fine, just unnecessary.
Thanks for the detailed response.I agree with you "Abraham's bosom" was a literal place. "Remnants" of what it had been probably still exist in the realm we can't see. It was probably "part of Hades". That does make some sense in the order of time Jesus is telling the story. I would not call the story a "parable" because it appears to be explaining something in a real realm people on earth can not see.
We get a lot of "insider glimpses" to things like this in the Scripture. A lot of the book of Revelation I believe is describing things that are literal and real, but are not visible to us in the material world because they are happening in the domain of the spirit world. Thus also describing to us how the spirit world was impacted by the atonement.
Now Revelation does use some "parabolic" language to describe these events to us; like depicting Jesus as a rider on a horse leading an army in a battle. That was a very real event to the spirit entities and it appears to me we have two places in the chronology of human time that's being shown to us. We have events in the time line of this created universe that are related to the atonement and we have depictions of the destruction of the cosmos at the end of time. The glimpses we have into this spirit realm begin with the atonement and end with the destruction of the cosmos.
The book of Revelation is confusing because it's chapters are topically relational to each other and not wholly chronological. Revelation tends to give us one sequence of events in one set of pictorial depictions, and then repeat the sequence with a different set of (yet often related) pictures. Why it does that - I aint got the foggiest clue!
It appears to be showing us different aspects of the same set of events though. Kind of like a master battle plan for say - WWII. You have the "birds eye view" of a huge event; but than you go from "here's what the Americans are doing", to "here's what the Germans are doing", to "the Russians", "the Japanese" etc. So, if you go from point A to B to C etc. They all may look like separate events; but in reality you're looking at different parts played out in one ginormous single event.
So, after going back and reading Luke 16 again. I have a confession to make. I realize now the rich man was talking to Abraham. From what I'd recollected, I'd thought he was talking to Lazarus. So yes, I'm guilty of not paying close enough attention to the passage there.
So, moving on from my error there:
Verse 26 of Luke 16 talks about a "gulf" between them. It's an unusual "obsolete" form of a word that apparently in Classical Greek means "chasm". It's a large "space" that is't crossable.
Still there is no Scriptural evidence that "Abraham's bosom" is "paradise". Given the theory that it's part of Hades, it can't be. Because again, like I said; what we know of "paradise" in Scripture is that the tree of life is there and it's in "the 3rd heaven".
Now unless "Abraham's bosom" isn't part of Hades? Which I suppose is theoretically possible; although I don't believe that is the case. If it is the case though, (that "Abraham's bosom" is not part of Hades) It still seems apparent to me that it is not the same place as "paradise".
I draw this conclusion because, looking at Revelation and the "souls under the alter", and the people who appear in heaven who "came out of great tribulation". Note, they were not in heaven before; so "Abraham's bosom" can not be in heaven. (Those are souls coming out of "great tribulation", not bodies. Other places in Revelation tell us this.) Jesus physically ascending to heaven 40 days post resurrection. Jesus saying "I go to prepare a place for you". "I will come and receive you, that were I am, there you will be also." (John 14:2&3) Obviously if Jesus is now in heaven, so would be deceased saints.
Taking all these passages together. I come to the conclusion that "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise" are two different places. Both of "Abraham's bosom" and "Hades" though being "earth bound locals" so to speak. (I.E. being part of this created universe; separate from God's domain in heaven.)
1 Peter 3:19 describes it as "preaching to spirits in prison". Now if we look at Ephesians 1 which says that those predestine unto salvation were predestine from the foundations of the world; and of Jesus "His soul was not left in hell". It's a valid question - what prison is He preaching to and what does this "preaching" consist of? Is He "preaching" to those in "Abraham's bosom", or is He "preaching" to those who are eternally condemned in the "lower Hades"? Or is He "preaching" to both?
Psalm 86:13 says "You have delivered my soul from the lowest hell." So as someone atoning for sin Himself; it would make sense that THAT is the hell Jesus's soul ended up in. This causes a cosmic consternation, because now there is a "non sinner" in among those sentenced to pay the wages of their sin.
Now the wrath of God is described as a state of existence where the presence of God is conspicuously absent. This is why Jesus says to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. (He uses the word "Geenna" here.) Matthew 10:28. We know being forsaken by God is an aspect of the atonement. And it says Jesus "tread the winepress of the wrath of God alone". Isaiah 63:3 and Revelation 19:15. Jesus at this point in time is the only one who has faced that wrath.
So here is the soul of this non sinner, in among those sentenced to condemnation; who's body is still physically alive, yet He's now actually in a state of being outside of the presence of God in both body and soul. God is righteous and this is not suppose to happen. And so thus the entire cosmos; all in both heaven and earth are in this extreme distress because if this Godman is not delivered. We are all lost!
So what is Jesus "preaching"? There are several psalms that speak of sorrows of hell. Psalm 116:3, Psalm 18:5, Jonah 2:2 talks about crying out of the belly of hell. He's crying unto God to honor the fact that He has not sinned and accept His willingness to be destroyed as atonement for those who have. God being a righteous entity can not leave his Son "strewn across hell" Psalm 139 describes it as. The Father is satisfied with the sacrifice that the Son is willing to literally be destroyed and allows this to happen to himself in order to break the power of the evil that flooded into the cosmos and left everything in this state of sinful degradation. There is silence in heaven because all of the universe is waiting to see what will happen to Him. THAT was the "great tribulation"!
So once He accomplishes this. He gets all that He came for. His Divinity is torn from his humanity. He dies. His soul is released from Hades. His spirit from his body. Soul and spirit enter heaven. All He purchased who've already died follow. His body goes into the grave. After the resurrection Matthew 27:52-54 says "Many bodies of the saints come out of the graves after His resurrection...." Here apparently is a "pre game" of the final resurrection. And now access to heaven is open for those who've been redeemed.
That's my take on the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
Thanks for the detailed response.
Here's an interesting comparison to consider. (cross over chasm)
Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Thanks for the detailed response.
Here's an interesting comparison to consider. (cross over chasm)
Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Here is what it means to me.I checked out these two words. They are the same greek word, in one place in Luke 16; but not in the other. The passages are similar in context though.
John 5:24 implies that those who believe have "walked across" from death to life. The word literally means "with foot" but they did it "perfect tense" which means it was an action completed in the past. That to me seems to imply "foreordained unto...." i.e. their action being a result of some factor that was outside of them.
So, given the context of the thread - LOL. "Doctrine not being necessary for salvation" because the impetus upon them to "walk", originated from outside of them. Which in the spiritual sense, if doctrine is to be "learned" usefully unto one's spiritual growth; that only happens because of the enlightening initiated by the Holy Spirit.
I'd venture to guess though based on answers you've given in this thread, that you already know that.
Also though, those who "would choose" to "walk over" (from Abraham's bosom to hell) are "not permitted"; as opposed to it "not being possible" (which is a different Greek word).
Which this brings up an interesting nuance. (Now that the wheels of my brain are spinning.) The question of those "righteous" prior to Christ opening heaven, choosing to transgress post death?
We on this side of Pentecost are possessed of the Holy Ghost, so I could not imagine ever wanting to do that and I do suppose that if someone pre-cross is atoned for, they would not do that either.
Maybe..... some did though? And or maybe a person who lived wickedly most of their life and repented in the end is actually in the lower part of Hades, because their "placement" in the "interim afterlife" prior to opening heaven, was solely based on works?
And maybe THESE are the spirits Christ preached to? (I don't know? Total speculation on my part here but; I could see where that's plausible on that side of the cross.) It's like the angels who fall. Once they've crossed that line, there is no coming back, because there is no redemption for them.
Thought? Let's do some brain bending here. LOL
The other half of that passage in Luke 16 though. Those in "the lower part of Hades" (if that's what this is) are unable to cross the chasm.
So.....
Here is what it means to me.
Let's add one more verse to the mix here. (John 3:18) Which tells us that...
Unbelievers stand condemned already. These souls are already in the same place (positionally) as the Rich Man ended up. When we believe in Jesus we cross over (walk across positionally) the chasm from death (condemnation) to life (where Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom).
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
The context as it relates to when it applies to a person's regeneration. The verse itself is pretty clear that it's speaking of people who've been taught doctrine.
The Truth of the matter is that Christ taught us to be obedient to The Word. That instruction is impossible to obey without Christ. Those that Truly try to be obedient fail until Christ moves in to save that soul. Once that happens, there must come a true understanding of The Fear of The Lord that is the beginning of Knowledge. Also, there comes chastisement and scourging for disobedience to those who have been enlightened. With knowledge comes greater expectations. However, all who are saved are saved by Grace through Faith in Christ Jesus and The Holy Trinity.I'm assuming you mean does doctrine play any role in salvation in the most basic sense - i.e. getting saved and placed in a "justified" state before God.
Obviously salvation in the more comprehensive sense (sanctification) needs, or at least can use, strong doctrine (meat vs. milk) in order to bring us where God wants us to be in life.
It is true that the thief on the cross (or the jailer in Philippi for that matter) needed only to be told that Christ was the way to salvation and was not in need of or ready for heavier doctrine. They needed no more to be saved than the basic message of the sufficiency or Christ to save in the most basic sense.
But - particularly in this day and age (and in this particular forum IMO) the fact that sound doctrine isn't necessary to be saved is a bit of a "catch 22".
If I tell a prospective believer that, "Faith in Christ's finished work at Calvary on your behalf is all that is needed to escape Hell and achieve Heaven" - that in itself is sound doctrine. That kind of sound doctrine is, regrettably, if not necessary at least advisable as part of the simple gospel message.
If a person believes on a gospel that includes works in order to be saved (e.g. "cooperating with God" to be returned to the proper relationship with God that Adam once had - read the "Orthodox" message of salvation) that person has believed a gospel which not only doesn't justify him but he is believing a false gospel.
Likewise if a person believes a gospel that includes partaking of the Eucharist in a prescribed manner or other "church" ordinances to be save and stay saved - that person has believed a gospel which not only doesn't justify him before God but he is believing a false gospel.
On the other hand - there are also those who say that a person needs to live up to a certain standard or he will not achieve salvation or he will lose whatever salvation he once had. In that case the potential believer may also be believing a false gospel - which is, according to God, no gospel at all.
So here we have a catch 22 for evangelicals everywhere in their preaching of the basic gospel.
One must give out sound doctrine concerning salvation by grace through faith alone in order to be sure the person is believing the correct rendition of the gospel.
There are way too many false teachers standing ready and willing to preach a false gospel to a potential believer. To not clarify salvation by grace seems a little lax.
Having said all that - I obviously don't know for sure how much doctrine of works makes the basic belief in the work of Christ of no avail. I wish I could know that everyone who names the name of Christ will be saved even if their understanding of the basic gospel is shrouded in extra fluff.
But there are just too many warnings about false gospels to not be sure people understand the simplicity of the basic message.
What's wrong with my color coded explanation of the verse that you totally mischaracterized?Are you purposefully missing the points that I'm making; or do you have something like Autism where certain types of communication are difficult for you to decipher?
Nope.You just shot yourself in the foot.
If one is going to get saved, they MUST KNOW what is required.That's my point. The doctrine is for the one leading someone to Christ, not for the one coming to Christ.
Then, let's just make this real simple.There you go, overcomplicating things again.
This means that a person can reject that Jesus IS Deity, the Son of God then. There are many people who view Jesus as merely human, and a good teacher, etc.Is the doctrine of the deity of Christ necessary for salvation? (nope)
You're missing the point. Does believing in Him for a better job result in salvation?What's wrong with "Believing in Christ for a better job"?
The better explanation would be why the requirements for saving faith seem so complicated for you.Explain why someone needs to follow your complicated formulas to be saved.
Of course not. And I never even hinted that it would.You are making things up again. The "doctrine of salvation" does not (in and of itself) lead anyone to salvation.
This is what we call evangelism. Telling others how to be saved.How would a lost person even know where to find it?
That's a winner. You finally boiled it down to the essence.Nope.
If one is going to get saved, they MUST KNOW what is required.
They MUST KNOW whom to believe IN, and they MUST KNOW WHY (the goal or purpose) they are believing in Him.
I see nothing that says any of this occurred before He died.Here you go.
Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Are you aware that you've done nothing to demonstrate anything more simple?The numerous and complicated facts are fine, just unnecessary.
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