Does Doctrine Influence Scripture?

[AnticipateHisComing]

Gosh, if your premise is right, how would one ever know?!

What a simple question, somehow it lacks an answer though, I will provide since you don't.

You will know all truths when you get to heaven.

Now the simple part that those who promote doctrine so much miss. In heaven there will be those that were taught and believed so many different doctrines.

Praise God that His grace is so much greater than man's knowledge; that salvation does not require perfect knowledge or understanding of His grace. That to have faith in Jesus as our Savior makes us brothers to Him and the whole church.

So the meat to the thread, put most simply; Doctrine doesn't save.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Doctrine doesn't save.

How is one saved?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Oh, how they hate for the lay to question their doctrine/knowledge.

I am the laity.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Doctrine doesn't save.

Yes, Doctrine doesn't save. I'm from a church that held a small book on church practices as the gospel truth and I remember an elder asking a Leader of the Church on if the small book were as important as the scriptures. There was an uproar and I think I missed out the argument.

So is doctrine as important as the scripture? What precedes the other? Is it sinful to question doctrine? Is it right to compare it against scripture?

Inasmuch as we wish to place biases on interpretations and decide on verses that would be suitable for our doctrines and which ones wouldn't; there comes a time when it's difficult to draw the line.

At what point is a person a Christian? Is it when we don't follow the doctrine or when we don't follow scripture? If I followed scripture would it lead me to "your doctrine?" If I followed doctrine would it lead me back to "Scripture?"

 

[fhansen]

Let's start with a definition of doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church.

My premise is that the way one reads and understands scripture is largely based on how they were taught to understand it. This is true for the majority of Christians, certainly true for the official, ordained priests/pastors/ministers of a church. If a pastor comes to a different understanding of scripture than what the church's official position is, they are labeled heretic and pushed out if they continue.

The point of this OP is just to highlight something that should be obvious. Churches influence the understanding of scripture. There are many disagreements in the doctrines of Christianity. Because churches don't tolerate dissension, there has resulted many different denominations. These denominations then train pastors that promote the same understanding that the particular denomination holds. These denominations spend a large portion of the training of their pastors to be familiar with the denomination's doctrine. Of course every denomination will use their "understanding" of scripture to explain why their doctrine is correct.

Now I understand the need for churches to guard against false teachings, but my issue is with churches/pastors that defend doctrine over scripture. They present a "bias" in their scripture to defend the church's doctrine. This can go from a simple explanation of how to read/understand established translations, to one church promoting a particular translation, to a church authorizing a translation, to a church having their own special Bible.

I won't call out a particular church that may have "distorted" scripture to suite their church's doctrine; but if you wish members of such a church to follow scripture over doctrine, then don't be hypocritical and teach the same concept in your church. Lastly, I just want all to admit that there is a bias that all doctrine trained posses.

I offer this poll then.

Does a church's doctrine influence one's understanding of scripture?

My hope in this OP is just to get people to acknowledge that their understanding of scripture has been largely influenced by what the established doctrines of their church teach.

There are so many disagreements here, I just wish one to consider their defense of their belief. Is it biased, based on their church's doctrine or is it truly what scripture teaches?

All of this simply serves to highlight the fact that people, whether as a group or as individuals, disagree on the meaning of Scripture-on their interpretations-because that's generally where their doctrine came from.

 

[Standing Up]

So the meat to the thread, put most simply; Doctrine doesn't save.

Is this your church doctrine influencing your reading of scripture?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Doctrine doesn't save.

How is one saved?

You post a one line summary of my post and ask a question. If you would have quoted the whole post, one would have seen the answer to your question in the previous sentence.

If you wish to learn the path to salvation, learn the difference between faith and doctrine. Faith that saves is so simple to be expressed in one sentence. The doctrines of churches are made so complex. My point was never to say that there are not hidden or "meaty" concepts in Christianity. My point in the last post was to put perspective on the diminutive importance of so many doctrines when we get to heaven. Of course you won't postulate a cognitive rebuttal to that argument.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I am the laity.

What a great rebuttal of the arguments of my post.

 

[Thursday]

Doctrine doesn't save.

You post a one line summary of my post and ask a question. If you would have quoted the whole post, one would have seen the answer to your question in the previous sentence.

If you wish to learn the path to salvation, learn the difference between faith and doctrine. Faith that saves is so simple to be expressed in one sentence. The doctrines of churches are made so complex. My point was never to say that there are not hidden or "meaty" concepts in Christianity. My point in the last post was to put perspective on the diminutive importance of so many doctrines when we get to heaven. Of course you won't postulate a cognitive rebuttal to that argument.

Which commandments of Jesus is it OK to disobey?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Yes, Doctrine doesn't save. I'm from a church that held a small book on church practices as the gospel truth and I remember an elder asking a Leader of the Church on if the small book were as important as the scriptures. There was an uproar and I think I missed out the argument.

So is doctrine as important as the scripture? What precedes the other? Is it sinful to question doctrine? Is it right to compare it against scripture?

Inasmuch as we wish to place biases on interpretations and decide on verses that would be suitable for our doctrines and which ones wouldn't; there comes a time when it's difficult to draw the line.

At what point is a person a Christian? Is it when we don't follow the doctrine or when we don't follow scripture? If I followed scripture would it lead me to "your doctrine?" If I followed doctrine would it lead me back to "Scripture?"

Thanks for the story and I could also add a personal story of how resistant the leaders of churches are to challenges to their doctrines. My point is that having doctrines is not bad. It is when a church has an environment that you can't or won't defend beliefs, think it heretical to question a church's doctrine that I think is harmful to the Church at large. Look at the early church and how the apostles used the defense of their faith, quoting scripture, to evangelize. That means they built up the church with their "doctrine", not separated it.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

All of this simply serves to highlight the fact that people, whether as a group or as individuals, disagree on the meaning of Scripture-on their interpretations-because that's generally where their doctrine came from.

If you can acknowledge that the majority believe what the church they were raised in taught them, then examine the need to question what we are taught.

This is the other point in my OP. How would one expect a Muslim being taught certain radical ideas to see how far from the truth it was unless he questioned what he was taught and looked elsewhere for the truth? This same could be applied to certain "Christian" faiths that distort scriptures to suite their own doctrines. If one expects members of other faiths to question their beliefs, then all faiths must be open to questions and defend with established truth their beliefs. This should be an opportunity for edification of the Church.

Now if one church just says, I own the truth and everything I say is true because my teacher told me so, there will be no good outcome. How hypocritical it would be for them to tell others to question what they were taught and just believe what they teach because they say it is true. So if you desire to convert other faiths, then you must be open to questions on your doctrine. Being open to questions means you must acknowledge a bias from being raised/taught in a specific church's doctrine.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Doctrine doesn't save.

You post a one line summary of my post and ask a question. If you would have quoted the whole post, one would have seen the answer to your question in the previous sentence.

If you wish to learn the path to salvation, learn the difference between faith and doctrine. Faith that saves is so simple to be expressed in one sentence. The doctrines of churches are made so complex. My point was never to say that there are not hidden or "meaty" concepts in Christianity. My point in the last post was to put perspective on the diminutive importance of so many doctrines when we get to heaven. Of course you won't postulate a cognitive rebuttal to that argument.

How is one saved?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Doctrine doesn't save.

You post a one line summary of my post and ask a question. If you would have quoted the whole post, one would have seen the answer to your question in the previous sentence.

If you wish to learn the path to salvation, learn the difference between faith and doctrine. Faith that saves is so simple to be expressed in one sentence. The doctrines of churches are made so complex. My point was never to say that there are not hidden or "meaty" concepts in Christianity. My point in the last post was to put perspective on the diminutive importance of so many doctrines when we get to heaven. Of course you won't postulate a cognitive rebuttal to that argument.

What is faith?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Which commandments of Jesus is it OK to disobey?

Not really a rebuttal to anything I said and yet another that wishes to ignore the point of my post being that in heaven all the many different doctrines taught by so many different denominations will be meaningless in heaven.

Despite the varied doctrines on salvation between Catholics and Protestants, there will be both in heaven, but they bicker endlessly.

Now a lesson for the Catholic question on salvation. Learn that every person in heaven was a sinner. That means all have disobeyed God's commandments. So it is not OK to break any, but God's grace is so much greater than our strength. Thank God that our salvation is not dependent on us keeping the commandments or some priest forgiving every individual sin.

Jesus was asked about salvation from a most "righteous" person, one who followed all the commandments. He was schooled by Jesus and told what it took to be "perfect". Thank God that our salvation does not come from being perfect, but from God.

Mat 19:16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”​

Learn that Jesus died to redeem us from our sin, but salvation has forever come from faith in the one true God. Read Heb 11 to learn what faith is.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

in heaven all the many different doctrines taught by so many different denominations will be meaningless

Will what you are attempting to teach me be meaningless as well?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Learn that Jesus died to redeem us from our sin

How does a man's death save me from sin?

 

[Edmond Smith]

To answer the question:
Does a church's doctrine influence one's understanding of scripture?
It can. Should it?
No.

The scripture should influence the doctrine of the Church.
Can we study the Word of God and get understanding from it? Of course.
The Bereans did. They came to the conclusion of Christ being the Messiah, by studying the scripture. They didn't just take Paul and Silas' word even though they spoke from the scriptures. The Bereans dug into God's Word and found the answers themselves. They were considered noble for doing so. They received the word with all readiness of mind...other words they didn't come into the Word with presuppositions.
They wanted to know the truth, they were hungry for it and the Holy Spirit opened it all up for them. He guided them through scriptures and they found it. Not by the doctrine of the church, not by the word of man...but by the Word of the Lord.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Act 17:11 KJV)

We must come to God's Word, with a readiness in mind, putting away our presuppositions, for the renewing of our mind and Spirit. We must do this daily, if you eat, you should read. Once we have done this and come to God's Word and realized it's about Him..our Savior..our Redeemer.
About the sins of mankind and How God placed himself down here in the form of a Man, taking on the sins of the world, without ever sinning, taking that ultimate punishment that we deserve, not Him, so that we may be saved.

There are many doctrines out there that aren't biblical in any sense of the word. They try to take away the divinity of Christ, they crucify him daily, they teach that to be saved one must do something or to do works to be saved...these are just a few of the many that are false doctrine.

The doctrine of the church is set up to help teach those who don't know and to remind those who are suppose to know better.
But they must be biblically correct and backed up by God's Word. They are also there to protect the church, so that those that do come in preaching false teachings can be recognized and stopped, even put out of the church.

But studying the Bible is one of the most awesome things we have been given from our Lord. It allows us to know who God is, It's his letters to us to get to know Him better, so that we can have that close relationship that we all need from Him.
Instead of trying to figure out who's doctrine is right, we first must make sure we are right with God, He will guide you, me and whomever to the right church who teaches the Word of God in truth, Spirit and in love with God almighty.

Studying the Bible helps us to stand in those times when we feel as if the end is near. It gives us the Knowledge of God and knowing that He exist and can do all things. That there is no other God like Him, nor ever will be. That Jesus Christ, isn't just my redeemer, He's my friend, My advocate to the Father, My judge, He's my first and my last.

Again, yes there are many false doctrine out there. But there is only one True doctrine...God's Word. It is the Absolute Truth and will last beyond time and space, it's not dependent on us and our puny intelligence, It's universal and outside our universe. Not one jot or tittle of His Word will ever change nor go away.

It stands on it's own, thru its truth and prophecies that are within it. It's Historically accurate and absolutely inerrant.

Man is the problem when it comes to doctrine. Especially more today than it has been in the past. Today, there are too many churches out there pandering to man's whims. Trying to make man feel good, feel comfortable. More churches are bringing the world into the church to try to fill the pew's. At one time the Church is were people came to feel secure in God, now they come to feel secure in their own selfish desires. At one time the Church was the center of the towns attention, now it's become the center of the latest rock group and fair to get the youth to show up. And the whole time this is happening, Man, changes his thinking, thinking he knows better than God and His Word for what the people need. According to these hypocrites, they are worse than the High council of the Jews who had Christ crucified. Who were, hypocrites, snakes and vipers according to Christ, going about to make names for themselves and working the law to their advantage. Instead of studying His Word, getting God's principles and precepts through His Word and then turning their lives' toward the Word instead they try to change the Word to fit them. That doesn't work, and those today who do so, Will face a very Angry God for they have stacked up His wrath against them and God will crush them as if by large milling stones.

The time is at hand people. Christ is about to return. Just look at the world, read the Word and compare what it says to how the times will be at His return. One Hint...like the days of Noe....and right now, it's worse now, then it was then.

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:37 KJV)

So, does doctrine dictate what people think? Yes it can. But it's up to the person, to put aside His or Her presuppositions, ask God to open up their eyes, heart, mind and spirit when they go before the Lord and His Word. To study His Word with a readiness in their mind, willing to renew their mind and spirit. So that He can change them to be more like
Christ. Instead of trying nit pick the scripture to fit their needs, We need to tear our lives apart to fit the scripture descriptions of who we are suppose to be....Christ.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

They came to the conclusion of Christ being the Messiah, by studying the scripture.

How did you come to that conclusion?

From where I sit, Paul taught them this, and they *confirmed* his teaching by check the texts. They didn't come to understand without a teacher.

 

[fhansen]

If you can acknowledge that the majority believe what the church they were raised in taught them, then examine the need to question what we are taught.

This is the other point in my OP. How would one expect a Muslim being taught certain radical ideas to see how far from the truth it was unless he questioned what he was taught and looked elsewhere for the truth? This same could be applied to certain "Christian" faiths that distort scriptures to suite their own doctrines. If one expects members of other faiths to question their beliefs, then all faiths must be open to questions and defend with established truth their beliefs. This should be an opportunity for edification of the Church.

Now if one church just says, I own the truth and everything I say is true because my teacher told me so, there will be no good outcome. How hypocritical it would be for them to tell others to question what they were taught and just believe what they teach because they say it is true. So if you desire to convert other faiths, then you must be open to questions on your doctrine. Being open to questions means you must acknowledge a bias from being raised/taught in a specific church's doctrine.

Questioning teachings is critical. But then we must decide for ourselves just who really does "distort scriptures to suite their own doctrines", whether churches or individuals. Because most churches/people are sincere in their beliefs; what may seem a distortion or misinterpretation to you may not be to them.

 

[Edmond Smith]

How did you come to that conclusion?

From where I sit, Paul taught them this, and they *confirmed* his teaching by check the texts. They didn't come to understand without a teacher.

Your correct, Paul and Silas taught them. But they didn't just take their word for it. They searched out the scriptures themselves.

I came to the conclusion about Christ thru experiencing His saving grace.

I was once a very selfish, self-centered type of guy. Love to fight and give people grief. Arguing with people to the point of blows was nothing for me. All the time the fist flew way before the thinking did. I wasn't a harden criminal, Just the mind behind them. I didn't do the stealing, I manipulated those I knew to do it for me. I used the brains that God gave me to start a small time gang of kids, I was just a kid myself, we did it all pretty much. I can unhappily say right now, every friend I had then, that I could trust, are either dead or in prison. If not for the Mercy of God and His saving grace. My life would not have changed for the better.
Yeah, I know Christ thru His experience. But what's more important to me, is that He knows me.

Does He know you?