Does creation get born again?

[Der Alte]

Amazing how the promises and statements in scripture are misused and abused all the while neglecting the context in which those are made.

"In context" is a foreign concept for some folks.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

This is false and unbiblical!! Yes, God calls, and calls, and coaxes and pleads sometimes for years!! But it is us that has to make the choice!! God does not force--ever.

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

There were 2 others on the cross with Jesus, only one believed and was saved. They both saw and heard the same. If it was all up to God, He need never have come and died for our sins, He would just force everyone to believe. This is the same nonsense as the everyone will be saved routine---claiming that hell is just a temporary situation to force you into accepting God! If God used force, He would have done so with Lucifer---no need for all this. No!! God does not torture you into submission!! We make our own hell on this earth---most of the time---by going against what God says. His LOVE is a perfect love---anything that involves force is not love but domination! Love never uses force. That is the same nonsense that some men, and women, use when they beat up on their mates yet claim they love them! That isn't love, love demands freedom to stay or go. You can't keep someone chained to the wall so they will still be there when you get home!

Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

It is not a demand, it is a pleading. When ever Jesus healed---what did He say?

Mar_10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Mat_15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Mar_5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Luk_17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Did He say "My faith has made thee whole?" No, it takes the faith of the person. Everyone is given a measure of faith---however, as in everything else, it also takes practice and the more it is used the more you will have.

Luk_17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

We are given that little mustard seed of faith---don't use it and it will never grow. All these people He healed, just used that little seed, like the thief on the cross, but the other did not. He has given you life for this world, He offers eternal life to those who choose to follow Him. He is not going to throw you into hell until you submit, He pleads for you to come to Him now, as you are, and He will heal you and give you rest and eternal life. That love is what covers your sins, He died for those sins and His blood protects you from His presence which is a devouring fire, without that protection, no one can stand in His presence!!

Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Man's poetry does not save---God does. He gave us the scriptures to lead us to Him, mans reinterpretation of them can lead us astray. The writings of man can lead away from the truth of the scriptures, God's Holy Spirit will led to discernment. Read His word!


Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

God doesn't woo us
he drags us.

Paul knocked off the donkey.

M

 

[mmksparbud]

God doesn't woo us
he drags us.

Paul knocked off the donkey.

M

Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

It does not say that Saul was knocked off his mount---it clearly says he fell because of the light blinding him. He can alter circumstances to make us think---as with Jonah. Jonah could have chosen to just wallow in there and die. Saul could have refused to do as God asked. It says that Saul persecuted Jesus, it does not say Jesus persecuted, beat or whip Saul until he gave in. Saul was blinded by the light. Mary could have refused. Noah could have refused. His family could have refused. The door to the ark was open for a long time. But when God shut it---no one could open it and everyone outside the ark perished. God brought the animals in---the people had to choose to go in and they refused.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is false and unbiblical!! Yes, God calls, and calls, and coaxes and pleads sometimes for years!! But it is us that has to make the choice!! God does not force--ever.

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

There were 2 others on the cross with Jesus, only one believed and was saved. They both saw and heard the same. If it was all up to God, He need never have come and died for our sins, He would just force everyone to believe. This is the same nonsense as the everyone will be saved routine---claiming that hell is just a temporary situation to force you into accepting God! If God used force, He would have done so with Lucifer---no need for all this. No!! God does not torture you into submission!! We make our own hell on this earth---most of the time---by going against what God says. His LOVE is a perfect love---anything that involves force is not love but domination! Love never uses force. That is the same nonsense that some men, and women, use when they beat up on their mates yet claim they love them! That isn't love, love demands freedom to stay or go. You can't keep someone chained to the wall so they will still be there when you get home!

Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

It is not a demand, it is a pleading. When ever Jesus healed---what did He say?

Mar_10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Mat_15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Mar_5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Luk_17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Did He say "My faith has made thee whole?" No, it takes the faith of the person. Everyone is given a measure of faith---however, as in everything else, it also takes practice and the more it is used the more you will have.

Luk_17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

We are given that little mustard seed of faith---don't use it and it will never grow. All these people He healed, just used that little seed, like the thief on the cross, but the other did not. He has given you life for this world, He offers eternal life to those who choose to follow Him. He is not going to throw you into hell until you submit, He pleads for you to come to Him now, as you are, and He will heal you and give you rest and eternal life. That love is what covers your sins, He died for those sins and His blood protects you from His presence which is a devouring fire, without that protection, no one can stand in His presence!!

Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Man's poetry does not save---God does. He gave us the scriptures to lead us to Him, mans reinterpretation of them can lead us astray. The writings of man can lead away from the truth of the scriptures, God's Holy Spirit will led to discernment. Read His word!


Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Are you claiming that Jesus died to save us from God?
Maybe if God wasn't so dangerous we wouldn't have this problem.
Or, perhaps the common understanding of God is all wrong.
Maybe he isn't an angry volcano god after all.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[Saint Steven]

God doesn't woo us
he drags us.

Paul knocked off the donkey.

M

Right.
And it's a done deal. Was he lifted up? (yes) Did he draw all people to himself? (yes)

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

 

[mmksparbud]

Are you claiming that Jesus died to save us from God?
Maybe if God wasn't so dangerous we wouldn't have this problem.
Or, perhaps the common understanding of God is all wrong.
Maybe he isn't an angry volcano god after all.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

That's ridiculous and a very good example of the twisting that is done by Uni's. He died to cover our sins, we are forgiven of our sins and that blood of Jesus protects us from our sins killing us for sin can not live in the presence of God's pure and Holy love which is to sin -- a consuming devouring fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is false and unbiblical!!

What's unbiblical about it? the article was loaded with scripture. (8 marked in read)
Just because it doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make it unbiblical.

Saint Steven said: ↑
The popular Churches ridiculously assert that spiritually dead men must somehow "choose" the Lord, but God's testimony about it is just the opposite. The bluntest affirmation that man does not do the choosing of God is that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself testified, "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU" (Jn. 15:16). In fact, according to Paul, that choice was made by God before He ever made so much as one single thing! "According as HE HAS CHOSEN US in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). It is tantamount to blasphemy for anyone to argue that man is capable, of his own "free will," to make a decision for Christ. Note the testimony of Luke: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). The Lord Jesus insists that Life and Faith are the work of God, not the work of man. He said....... “the Son gives life to whom He will" and "this is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom God has sent" (Jn. 6:29; 5:21). In all fairness, the evangelist who says to the crowd, "Whosoever comes to Jesus will in no wise be cast out," should add the preceding words of Christ: "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me" (Jn. 6:37). Who is it that will not be cast out? All who come to Him! Who, then, will come to the Saviour? He says, "All whom the Father gives Me." The choice as to who will come to Christ at any given moment is God's, not man's. God does not call all men at the same time. Some are ordained to eternal life, right now, while others will be called later. "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER..." (I Cor. 15:22-23).

If it were left up to man he would NEVER BELIEVE, for man is totally depraved, totally incapable of that which is good. Left on his own to make a decision for Christ, without first being given life and faith by an act of God, man would never of his own "free will" come to Jesus. "You will not come to Me, that you might have life" (Jn. 5:40).

'Tis not I that did choose You. For, Lord, that could not be:
This heart would still refuse You, Had You not chosen me!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Saint Steven]

That's ridiculous and a very good example of the twisting that is done by Uni's. He died to cover our sins, we are forgiven of our sins and that blood of Jesus protects us from our sins killing us for sin can not live in the presence of God's pure and Holy love which is to sin -- a consuming devouring fire.

What's twisted about it?
What you are saying boils down to Jesus dying to save us from God.
Careful wording does not disguise the fact of what you are claiming.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Are you claiming that Jesus died to save us from God?
Maybe if God wasn't so dangerous we wouldn't have this problem.
Or, perhaps the common understanding of God is all wrong.
Maybe he isn't an angry volcano god after all.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[Saint Steven]

Amazing how the promises and statements in scripture are misused and abused all the while neglecting the context in which those are made.

Can you give us an example from the reading?

 

[Saint Steven]

That's ridiculous and a very good example of the twisting that is done by Uni's.

The Controversial Christian Theology area is a protected area for Universalism.

Statement of Purpose - Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose

 

[mmksparbud]

The Controversial Christian Theology area is a protected area for Universalism.

Statement of Purpose - Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose

Yes, forgot to look at that---I have said all I need to anyway. I have no more to say except to remind everyone to really read all the scriptures, not just the ones you want, and do so without the philosophy of men. God bless.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Can you give us an example from the reading?

John 15:16 directly applies to the disciples.

 

[Der Alte]

...

What's unbiblical about it? the article was loaded with scripture. (8 marked in read)
Just because it doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't make it unbiblical.
Saint Steven said: ↑
The popular Churches ridiculously assert that spiritually dead men must somehow "choose" the Lord, but God's testimony about it is just the opposite. The bluntest affirmation that man does not do the choosing of God is that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself testified, "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU"

Jn. 15:16). In fact, according to Paul, that choice was made by God before He ever made so much as one single thing! "According as HE HAS CHOSEN US in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). It is tantamount to blasphemy for anyone to argue that man is capable, of his own "free will," to make a decision for Christ. Note the testimony of Luke: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). The Lord Jesus insists that Life and Faith are the work of God, not the work of man. He said....... “the Son gives life to whom He will" and "this is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom God has sent" (Jn. 6:29; 5:21). In all fairness, the evangelist who says to the crowd, "Whosoever comes to Jesus will in no wise be cast out," should add the preceding words of Christ: "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me" (Jn. 6:37). Who is it that will not be cast out? All who come to Him! Who, then, will come to the Saviour? He says, "All whom the Father gives Me." The choice as to who will come to Christ at any given moment is God's, not man's. God does not call all men at the same time. Some are ordained to eternal life, right now, while others will be called later. "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER..." (I Cor. 15:22-23).
If it were left up to man he would NEVER BELIEVE, for man is totally depraved, totally incapable of that which is good. Left on his own to make a decision for Christ, without first being given life and faith by an act of God, man would never of his own "free will" come to Jesus. "You will not come to Me, that you might have life" (Jn. 5:40).

'Tis not I that did choose You. For, Lord, that could not be:
This heart would still refuse You, Had You not chosen me!...

Each one of the vss. has a specific context. But when one jams them together as if they were one continuous narrative then they are out-of-context.
*John 15:16 is addressed ONLY to the 12 disciples NOT all of mankind.
...Here is my example to demonstrate the fallacy of posts like this.

Matthew 27:5 Judas went and went and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37 Then said Jesus, Go, and do thou likewise.​

*Ephesians 1:4 Was addressed specifically to the church at Ephesus.

Ephesians 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye [church @ Ephesus] who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:17
17 And came and preached peace to you [church @ Ephesus] which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Ephesians 4:7
7 But unto every one of us [church @ Ephesus] is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.​

But in the same writing, Ephesians, Paul says there are exceptions.

Ephesians 5:4-7
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.[Distinguishes between the church @ Ephesus and the world.]​

*John 6:29; John 5:21 a condition i.e. a belief in Jesus. The dead in the grave/hell/LOF cannot make any choices.
*I Corinthians 15:22-23 all mankind are "in Adam" they are direct physical descendants of Adam. But all mankind is not "in Christ." See following vss, for requirement to be "in Christ."

Ephesians 1:10, Romans 3:24, Romans 8:1-2, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 1:30, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 3:26, Ephesians 2:13, 2 Timothy 1:1, 2 Timothy 2:10, 2 Timothy 3:15, ​

*John 5:40 the requirement is come to Christ to have life, the converse is those who do not come to Christ do not have life. Otherwise Jesus would have said everyone will have life.

 

[Saint Steven]

John 15:16 directly applies to the disciples.

The author was writing that they were chosen, rather than them choosing Jesus.
How does this prove otherwise?

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus is YHWH said: ↑
Amazing how the promises and statements in scripture are misused and abused all the while neglecting the context in which those are made.

 

[Saint Steven]

I like this statement from the signature line from @Shrewd Manager
(which I think is an adaptation from something which the wife of @FineLinen said)

If everyone does not love Jesus, it's only because everyone has not met him yet.

 

[Der Alte]

God doesn't woo us
he drags us.
Paul knocked off the donkey.
M

Is getting knocked off of a donkey the norm for everybody? Paul was alive when that happened wasn't he? Does scripture ever mention anyone getting knocked off their donkey in the grave/hell/LOF?
I wasn't knocked off of a donkey, were you?
None of the inhabitants of the world at the time of Noah were dragged to God but were drowned; young, old, men, women, children, infants.
None of the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain were dragged to God but they were burned alive; young, old, men, women, children, infants.
None of the inhabitants of the Canaanite cities were dragged to God but were killed by the sword; young, old, men, women, children, infants were smashed against a wall..

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God doesn't woo us
he drags us.

He's the supreme fisher of men, and what fish can escape the universal dragnet?

Paul knocked off the donkey.

Thought it was a camel..?