Does creation get born again?

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes. Even the word "Catholic" means universal, as I understand it. As in the line in the creed. The catholic church is the church universal, not limited to the Catholic Church. (note capitalization)

That's right, so St Thomas there could really be said to be presenting the core principle of catholic theology in the form 'Exitus-Reditus'. I find the following excerpt from a Latin Theological Dictionary:

Exitus et Reditus
Exit and return
Everything in creation comes from God and returns to God; this is a basic principle of a theological understanding of the moral life, the natural law, and of all creation.


Consecrated Phrases

So as all die in Adam, all are made alive in Christ.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Unfortunately the Latin phrase is not scripture. Interesting assumption but I prefer to base my beliefs on what scripture clearly states.

As all die in Adam, all are made alive in Christ.
As all things proceed from God, all shall return to Him.

See how that works?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As all die in Adam, all are made alive in Christ.
As all things proceed from God, all shall return to Him.
See how that works?
As with all UR-tes you quote an out-of-context proof text. I have shown you this before but you evidently choose to ignore it.
All men are "in Adam" because the entire human race are literal, physical descendants of Adam.
All men are NOT "in Christ." That requires a conscious decision before death.
Paul did NOT say "all are made alive "by" Christ!"

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
If one is NOT "in Christ" they are NOT justified and there is NO redemption.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
There is now condemnation for those NOT "in Christ." who walk after the flesh but NOT after the spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
If any man NOT be in Christ he is NOT a new creature, old things are not passed away and they do not become new..
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
If one is NOT "in Christ" they are NOT children of God.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
If one is NOT "in Christ" they are far off and NOT brought nigh.
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
If one is NOT "in Christ" there is NO promise of life.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
If one is NOT "in Christ" they do not obtain the salvation or eternal glory.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
As with all UR-tes you quote an out-of-context proof text. I have shown you this before but you evidently choose to ignore it.
All men are "in Adam" because the entire human race are literal, physical descendants of Adam.
All men are NOT "in Christ." That requires a conscious decision before death.
Paul did NOT say "all are made alive "by" Christ!"

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
If one is NOT "in Christ" there is no redemption.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
There is now condemnation for those NOT "in Christ." who walk after the flesh but NOT after the spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
If any man NOT be in Christ he is NOT a new creature, old things are not passed away and they do not become new..
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
If one is NOT "in Christ" they are NOT children of God.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
If one is NOT "in Christ" are far off and NOT brought nigh.
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
If one is NOT "in Christ" there is NO promise of life.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
If one is NOT "in Christ" they do not obtain the salvation or eternal glory.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Did you choose to fall in Adam? This is like the 'manufacturing consent' lie of the so-called social contract. How am I deemed to have consented to laws passed before I was even born? It's a 'legal fiction', and artifice, which makes it less than true and therefore not of Christ, who is the truth.

You're essentially saying the fall was unconditional and universal but the redemption is conditional and limited. So Christ is not greater than Adam, and grace is not abundant over sin?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Did you choose to fall in Adam? This is like the 'manufacturing consent' lie of the so-called social contract. How am I deemed to have consented to laws passed before I was even born? It's a 'legal fiction', and artifice, which makes it less than true and therefore not of Christ, who is the truth.
You're essentially saying the fall was unconditional and universal but the redemption is conditional and limited. So Christ is not greater than Adam, and grace is not abundant over sin?
I said what I said, please do not twist my words trying to make me say something I did not say.
All of this is heterodox word smithing trying to support your assumptions/presuppositions.
I quoted scripture if you don't like what scripture actually, literally says maybe you should talk to the author.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I said what I said, please do not twist my words trying to make me say something I did not say.
All of this is heterodox word smithing trying to support your assumptions/presuppositions.
I quoted scripture if you don't like what scripture actually, literally says maybe you should talk to the author.

Please forgive me for my assumptions and poor language skills.

Are you of the view that the Bible teaches that the fall was unconditional and universal but the redemption is conditional and limited?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Please forgive me for my assumptions and poor language skills.
Are you of the view that the Bible teaches that the fall was unconditional and universal but the redemption is conditional and limited?
Here is what I believe.
1 Corinthians 15:22
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Paul clearly stated a condition "in Adam" and "in Christ."
As I stated before, all mankind, are "in Adam" since all mankind are literal and physical descendants of Adam.
All mankind are not inherently "in Christ," that requires a conscious decision in this life because Jesus said the night is coming when no man can work.
And we must remember Paul wrote letters to 3 churches saying that certain groups of people have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
(17) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.


 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Here is what I believe.
1 Corinthians 15:22
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Paul clearly stated a condition "in Adam" and "in Christ."
As I stated before, all mankind, are "in Adam" since all mankind are literal and physical descendants of Adam.
All mankind are not inherently "in Christ," that requires a conscious decision in this life because Jesus said the night is coming when no man can work.
And we must remember Paul wrote letters to 3 churches saying that certain groups of people have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
(17) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.


Okay, so do you see that there is a tension to be resolved in (on the one hand) the promise 'in Christ all shall be made alive', and (on the other) the various verses teaching to the effect that sinners will not inherit?

Because it's the same 'all' in 1 Cor 15:22 as the 'all [mankind]' in Adam, is it not?

Can we put the question thus: How can the promise that all mankind be made alive in Christ be fulfilled if ppl refuse to repent of their sins?

If you're happy with that formulation, let me have the benefit of your answer pls.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Okay, so do you see that there is a tension to be resolved in (on the one hand) the promise 'in Christ all shall be made alive', and (on the other) the various verses teaching to the effect that sinners will not inherit?
Because it's the same 'all' in 1 Cor 15:22 as the 'all [mankind]' in Adam, is it not?
Can we put the question thus: How can the promise that all mankind be made alive in Christ be fulfilled if ppl refuse to repent of their sins?
If you're happy with that formulation, let me have the benefit of your answer pls.
In this sentence How can the promise that all mankind be made alive in Christ be fulfilled if ppl refuse to repent of their sins?, you seem to recognize but not understand the condition. There is a condition for being made alive one must be "in Christ." Those who refuse to repent are not "in Christ." "All in Christ" will be made alive just as Paul wrote.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In this sentence How can the promise that all mankind be made alive in Christ be fulfilled if ppl refuse to repent of their sins?, you seem to recognize but not understand the condition. There is a condition for being made alive one must be "in Christ." Those who refuse to repent are not "in Christ." "All in Christ" will be made alive just as Paul wrote.

So your interpretation of 1 Cor 15:22 is to the effect: 'If anyone is in Adam then they will die, and if anyone is in Christ they will live'?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Do you remember the story of Balaam? Or the talking eagle in Revelation?

Numbers 22:27-29
When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat it with his staff. 28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”
29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

Revelation 8:13
As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

All I can do is tell you what we can prove. Animals do not have the complex vocal chords or thought processes,to form human speech. However, God can do anything He chooses and in your two examples had two animals speak. Whether it was them miming and God or angels speaking is not known.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
All I can do is tell you what we can prove. Animals do not have the complex vocal chords or thought processes,to form human speech. However, God can do anything He chooses and in your two examples had two animals speak. Whether it was them miming and God or angels speaking is not known.
I always wondered why Eve did not say, "Oh, so you are talking now." Or something like that. Same with Balaam's donkey. But in both stories they held conversations that indicated plenty of ability on the part of the animals.

In the case of Balaam, the verse says, "the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth".
Which makes it sound like the donkey wanted to speak earlier but was prevented.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saint Steven said:
Do you remember the story of Balaam? Or the talking eagle in Revelation?

Numbers 22:27-29
When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat it with his staff. 28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”
29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

Revelation 8:13
As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,368
7,745
Canada
✟722,324.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
  1. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal [paliggenesia] of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. (Matt 19:28-29)
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration [paliggenesia] and renewal [anakinoseos] of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)​

Strong’s:
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.
3824 /paliggenesía ("renewal, rebirth") is used twice in the NT referring to: a) the re-birth of physical creation at Christ's return (Advent), which inaugurates His millennial kingdom (Mt 19:28; cf. Ro 8:18-25); and b) the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5).

342 anakaínōsis (from 303 /aná, "up, completing a process," which intensifies kainō, "make fresh, new"; see 2537 /kainós) – properly, a new development; a renewal, achieved by God's power.

ἀνακαίνωσις, (εως, ἡ, a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better (cf. ἀνακαινόω): τοῦ νως, object. genitive, Romans 12:2; πνεύματος ἁγίου, effected by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5. (Etym. Magn., Suidas; (Hermas, vis. 3, 8, 9 [ET]; other ecclesiastical writings); the simple καίνωσις is found only in Josephus, Antiquities 18, 6, 10.) (Cf. Trench, § xviii.)

2537 kainós – properly, new in quality (innovation), fresh in development or opportunity – because "not found exactly like this before."​
2. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born [gennethenai] again.’ John 3:7

Strong’s:

1080 gennáō – properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten."

d. peculiarly, in the Gospel and First Epistle of John, of God conferring upon men the nature and disposition of his sons, imparting to them spiritual life, i.e. by his own holy power prompting and persuading souls to put faith in Christ and live a new life consecrated to himself;​
3. Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration [apokatasaseos] of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets. (Acts 3:21)​

Strongs:
Cognate: 605 apokatástasis (from 600 /apokathístēmi, "restore") – restitution, referring to the "restoration of the physical earth in the Messianic kingdom (Millennium)" (G. Archer).

ἀποκατάστασις, ἀποκαταστάσεως, ἡ (ἀποκαθίστημι, which see), restoration: τῶν πάντων, the restoration not only of the true theocracy but also of that more perfect state of (even physical) things which existed before the fall, Acts 3:21; cf. Meyer at the passage (Often in Polybius, Diodorus, Plutarch, others.)​

Do these scriptures teach that a universal spiritual baptism will occur, and are the terms used essentially synonyms?
The heaven and the earth are destroyed by fire in the judgment, and then a new heaven and a new earth is presented. Sounds like a resurrection to me.

"the old is gone, the new has come" etc.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I always wondered why Eve did not say, "Oh, so you are talking now." Or something like that. Same with Balaam's donkey. But in both stories they held conversations that indicated plenty of ability on the part of the animals.

In the case of Balaam, the verse says, "the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth".
Which makes it sound like the donkey wanted to speak earlier but was prevented.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saint Steven said:
Do you remember the story of Balaam? Or the talking eagle in Revelation?

Numbers 22:27-29
When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat it with his staff. 28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”
29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

Revelation 8:13
As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

Well wondering on something that the bible refuses to speak on can lead to false conclusions.

or in the case of Baalam it could have been God caused the donkey to speak and not that the donkey wanted to talk earlier!

God can do anything He chooses!
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The heaven and the earth are destroyed by fire in the judgment, and then a new heaven and a new earth is presented. Sounds like a resurrection to me.

"the old is gone, the new has come" etc.

Thanks for your comment. It recalled to me 2 Cor 5:17:
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As all die in Adam, all are made alive in Christ.
As all things proceed from God, all shall return to Him.

See how that works?
The popular Churches ridiculously assert that spiritually dead men must somehow "choose" the Lord, but God's testimony about it is just the opposite. The bluntest affirmation that man does not do the choosing of God is that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself testified, "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU" (Jn. 15:16). In fact, according to Paul, that choice was made by God before He ever made so much as one single thing! "According as HE HAS CHOSEN US in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). It is tantamount to blasphemy for anyone to argue that man is capable, of his own "free will," to make a decision for Christ. Note the testimony of Luke: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). The Lord Jesus insists that Life and Faith are the work of God, not the work of man. He said....... “the Son gives life to whom He will" and "this is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom God has sent" (Jn. 6:29; 5:21). In all fairness, the evangelist who says to the crowd, "Whosoever comes to Jesus will in no wise be cast out," should add the preceding words of Christ: "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me" (Jn. 6:37). Who is it that will not be cast out? All who come to Him! Who, then, will come to the Saviour? He says, "All whom the Father gives Me." The choice as to who will come to Christ at any given moment is God's, not man's. God does not call all men at the same time. Some are ordained to eternal life, right now, while others will be called later. "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER..." (I Cor. 15:22-23).

If it were left up to man he would NEVER BELIEVE, for man is totally depraved, totally incapable of that which is good. Left on his own to make a decision for Christ, without first being given life and faith by an act of God, man would never of his own "free will" come to Jesus. "You will not come to Me, that you might have life" (Jn. 5:40).

'Tis not I that did choose You. For, Lord, that could not be:
This heart would still refuse You, Had You not chosen me!


Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
The popular Churches ridiculously assert that spiritually dead men must somehow "choose" the Lord, but God's testimony about it is just the opposite. The bluntest affirmation that man does not do the choosing of God is that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself testified, "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU" (Jn. 15:16). In fact, according to Paul, that choice was made by God before He ever made so much as one single thing! "According as HE HAS CHOSEN US in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). It is tantamount to blasphemy for anyone to argue that man is capable, of his own "free will," to make a decision for Christ. Note the testimony of Luke: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). The Lord Jesus insists that Life and Faith are the work of God, not the work of man. He said....... “the Son gives life to whom He will" and "this is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom God has sent" (Jn. 6:29; 5:21). In all fairness, the evangelist who says to the crowd, "Whosoever comes to Jesus will in no wise be cast out," should add the preceding words of Christ: "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me" (Jn. 6:37). Who is it that will not be cast out? All who come to Him! Who, then, will come to the Saviour? He says, "All whom the Father gives Me." The choice as to who will come to Christ at any given moment is God's, not man's. God does not call all men at the same time. Some are ordained to eternal life, right now, while others will be called later. "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER..." (I Cor. 15:22-23).

If it were left up to man he would NEVER BELIEVE, for man is totally depraved, totally incapable of that which is good. Left on his own to make a decision for Christ, without first being given life and faith by an act of God, man would never of his own "free will" come to Jesus. "You will not come to Me, that you might have life" (Jn. 5:40).

'Tis not I that did choose You. For, Lord, that could not be:
This heart would still refuse You, Had You not chosen me!


Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1



This is false and unbiblical!! Yes, God calls, and calls, and coaxes and pleads sometimes for years!! But it is us that has to make the choice!! God does not force--ever.

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

There were 2 others on the cross with Jesus, only one believed and was saved. They both saw and heard the same. If it was all up to God, He need never have come and died for our sins, He would just force everyone to believe. This is the same nonsense as the everyone will be saved routine---claiming that hell is just a temporary situation to force you into accepting God! If God used force, He would have done so with Lucifer---no need for all this. No!! God does not torture you into submission!! We make our own hell on this earth---most of the time---by going against what God says. His LOVE is a perfect love---anything that involves force is not love but domination! Love never uses force. That is the same nonsense that some men, and women, use when they beat up on their mates yet claim they love them! That isn't love, love demands freedom to stay or go. You can't keep someone chained to the wall so they will still be there when you get home!

Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

It is not a demand, it is a pleading. When ever Jesus healed---what did He say?

Mar_10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Mat_15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Mar_5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Luk_17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Did He say "My faith has made thee whole?" No, it takes the faith of the person. Everyone is given a measure of faith---however, as in everything else, it also takes practice and the more it is used the more you will have.

Luk_17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

We are given that little mustard seed of faith---don't use it and it will never grow. All these people He healed, just used that little seed, like the thief on the cross, but the other did not. He has given you life for this world, He offers eternal life to those who choose to follow Him. He is not going to throw you into hell until you submit, He pleads for you to come to Him now, as you are, and He will heal you and give you rest and eternal life. That love is what covers your sins, He died for those sins and His blood protects you from His presence which is a devouring fire, without that protection, no one can stand in His presence!!

Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Man's poetry does not save---God does. He gave us the scriptures to lead us to Him, mans reinterpretation of them can lead us astray. The writings of man can lead away from the truth of the scriptures, God's Holy Spirit will led to discernment. Read His word!


Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Saint Steven said:
The popular Churches ridiculously assert that spiritually dead men must somehow "choose" the Lord, but God's testimony about it is just the opposite. The bluntest affirmation that man does not do the choosing of God is that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself testified, "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU" (Jn. 15:16). ***
This is the usual UR-ite twisting of scripture. John 15:16 is addressed only to the 12 disciples NOT all mankind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jesus is YHWH
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Site Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This is the usual UR-ite twisting of scripture. John 15:16 is addressed only to the 12 disciples NOT all mankind.
Amazing how the promises and statements in scripture are misused and abused all the while neglecting the context in which those are made.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So your interpretation of 1 Cor 15:22 is to the effect: 'If anyone is in Adam then they will die, and if anyone is in Christ they will live'?
Do you have a problem with that? That is exactly what scripture says. Paul says quite a bit about being "in Christ."
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
NOT “in Christ””in Him” NOT gathered together in one.
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.
Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” there IS condemnation.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Not “in Christ” old things NOT passed away NOT made new.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
NOT “in Christ” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.


 
Upvote 0