Does Cain’s punishment support evolution?

[juvenissun]

Indeed, strangers he referred to as 'whoever finds me' not family. He still felt safe at home, it was being cast out to wander the world that frightened him.

Right now I am looking at the literal meaning of the text. It's a powerful warning against bitterness and hate for your brother though.

I think you are interpret the description metaphorically by ignoring the origin of "other people". But, that is fine. I agree with you on what you said.

 

[Assyrian]

I think you are interpret the description metaphorically by ignoring the origin of "other people". But, that is fine. I agree with you on what you said.

How is it 'ignoring the origin of other people' if I am looking at what the text says and the text doesn't give it??? How is that interpreting the text metaphorically?

 

[1an]

How is it 'ignoring the origin of other people' if I am looking at what the text says and the text doesn't give it??? How is that interpreting the text metaphorically?

Talking about other people : -

"At sites dating from the Lower Paleolithic Period which was between 2,500,000 to 200,000 years ago, simple pebble tools have been found in association with the remains of what may have been the earliest human ancestors.

About 700,000 years ago, a new Lower Paleolithic tool, the hand ax, appeared. The earliest European hand axes are assigned to the Abbevillian industry, which developed in northern France in the valley of the Somme River; a later, more refined hand-ax tradition is seen in the Acheulian industry, evidence of which has been found in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Some of the earliest known hand axes were found at Olduvai Gorge (Tanzania) in association with remains of H. erectus. Alongside the hand-axe tradition there developed a distinct and very different stone-tool industry, based on flakes of stone: special tools were made from worked (carefully shaped) flakes of flint. In Europe, the Clactonian industry is one example of a flake tradition. The early flake industries probably contributed to the development of the Middle Paleolithic flake tools of the Mousterian industry, which is associated with the remains of Neanderthal man."

“Paleolithic Period.” Encyclopædia Britannica

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[juvenissun]

How is it 'ignoring the origin of other people' if I am looking at what the text says and the text doesn't give it??? How is that interpreting the text metaphorically?

Because if you give an consideration to the origin of other people, then your interpretation to these verses would be significantly different. We do not even know if Cain lived with Adam and Eve. It is possible that he is just one of many children of Adam and lived somewhere in the nearby area.

 

[1an]

Because if you give an consideration to the origin of other people, then your interpretation to these verses would be significantly different. We do not even know if Cain lived with Adam and Eve. It is possible that he is just one of many children of Adam and lived somewhere in the nearby area.

Or alternatively the Bible is a record only of the Hebrew nation and not the whole world?

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[Assyrian]

Because if you give an consideration to the origin of other people, then your interpretation to these verses would be significantly different.

No, because I distinguish between my understanding of science, and what the text is saying. The alternative is eisegesis, reading what I think the text should say into the text. But I want to know what the text itself is saying.

We do not even know if Cain lived with Adam and Eve. It is possible that he is just one of many children of Adam and lived somewhere in the nearby area.

He certainly lived close to the only other brother we are told about. It is interesting that when he was exiled he said Gen 4:14 Behold, you have driven me today away from the adamah. This was the same word adamah or ground Adam was sent to till when he was cast out of Eden. Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. Is there even a hint in the story that Cain had moved away from home when he murdered his brother?

 

[Assyrian]

Talking about other people : -

"At sites dating from the Lower Paleolithic Period which was between 2,500,000 to 200,000 years ago, simple pebble tools have been found in association with the remains of what may have been the earliest human ancestors.

About 700,000 years ago, a new Lower Paleolithic tool, the hand ax, appeared. The earliest European hand axes are assigned to the Abbevillian industry, which developed in northern France in the valley of the Somme River; a later, more refined hand-ax tradition is seen in the Acheulian industry, evidence of which has been found in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Some of the earliest known hand axes were found at Olduvai Gorge (Tanzania) in association with remains of H. erectus. Alongside the hand-axe tradition there developed a distinct and very different stone-tool industry, based on flakes of stone: special tools were made from worked (carefully shaped) flakes of flint. In Europe, the Clactonian industry is one example of a flake tradition. The early flake industries probably contributed to the development of the Middle Paleolithic flake tools of the Mousterian industry, which is associated with the remains of Neanderthal man."

“Paleolithic Period.” Encyclopædia Britannica

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Yes we have been around for some time now

 

[lucaspa]

It makes sense, until you think about how does the environment really change. It changed gradually all right. But it changes back and forth.

Not all the time. For instance, when flowering plants evolved, that changed the environment permanently.

I suppose you are thinking of weather: the climate gets warmer, then thousands of years later it gets colder. Areas get wetter, and then have drought. However, when we look closely at the adaptations, species don't adapt back to the original when the climate swings again. This is because some of the alleles for the original adaptation have been lost. If you look at the Grant study of the effect of drought on some of Darwin's finches, when the climate got moister again the populations did not go back to the original. True, then did adapt their beaks again to having smaller seeds available, but they did so differently than they had the first time. The changes of the drought on morphology were permanent.

 

[lucaspa]

Or alternatively the Bible is a record only of the Hebrew nation and not the whole world?

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That's one interpretation Jewish rabbis have tried: Adam and Eve were the first Hebrew people. Notice what they are doing: altering their interpretation of scripture in the light of evidence from God's Creation.

However, I don't think the original authors were trying to do that. That would take more sophistication and more literalness than the text shows. Let's face it, Genesis 3:14-19 are not literal records of how farming got to be difficult or people hate snakes.

IMO, Genesis 2-5 is a creation story that comes from the agricultural part of Israel. It has also been reworked a bit to symbolize the Israel-Babylon conflict. The Cain-Abel story represents the difference in offerings made to Marduk (Cain's offerings of plants) and Yahweh (Abel's offerings of animal parts). Israel (Abel) rejected Babylon and then Babylon (Cain) murdered Israel in the Babylonian Conquest.

 

[lucaspa]

Because if you give an consideration to the origin of other people, then your interpretation to these verses would be significantly different. We do not even know if Cain lived with Adam and Eve. It is possible that he is just one of many children of Adam and lived somewhere in the nearby area.

Cain and Abel had to live close enough so that Genesis 4:25 makes sense. If Cain and Abel didn't live with Adam and Eve, how did Eve find out about the murder? Cain told them before he left? Or are you reading into the text that God told them later? Perhaps one of the other neighbors told them? Couldn't have been any other kids, because the next child -- Seth -- isn't born until after Eve knew about the murder of Abel.

 

[1an]

That's one interpretation Jewish rabbis have tried: Adam and Eve were the first Hebrew people. Notice what they are doing: altering their interpretation of scripture in the light of evidence from God's Creation.

However, I don't think the original authors were trying to do that. That would take more sophistication and more literalness than the text shows. Let's face it, Genesis 3:14-19 are not literal records of how farming got to be difficult or people hate snakes.

IMO, Genesis 2-5 is a creation story that comes from the agricultural part of Israel. It has also been reworked a bit to symbolize the Israel-Babylon conflict. The Cain-Abel story represents the difference in offerings made to Marduk (Cain's offerings of plants) and Yahweh (Abel's offerings of animal parts). Israel (Abel) rejected Babylon and then Babylon (Cain) murdered Israel in the Babylonian Conquest.

Adam and Eve, by that I mean the parents of Cain and Able, were not the first Hebrews they were the first people to appear in the history of their nation.

If you were to write about the American nation you would probably begin sometime around the 13th or 14th century. But just like Adam and Eve they were not the first people.

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[juvenissun]

Cain and Abel had to live close enough so that Genesis 4:25 makes sense. If Cain and Abel didn't live with Adam and Eve, how did Eve find out about the murder? Cain told them before he left? Or are you reading into the text that God told them later? Perhaps one of the other neighbors told them? Couldn't have been any other kids, because the next child -- Seth -- isn't born until after Eve knew about the murder of Abel.

I don't know.

But the real question which drives all these ideas is: where do the "other people" come from? It is a legitimate question and it will not go away even you chose not to look at it. And more seriously, if you do consider the question, then part of the interpretation to Cain's story could also be changed accordingly.

 

[dagelos]

The Genesis account does not exclude the possibility that:
a) Abel had children before he died
b) Cain already had other brothers and sisters
c) Cain was worried about people from future generations in his family who had not even been born yet
d) Cain was concerned his parents might take revenge into their own hands

Since Cain could have been referring to one or all of these possibilities, I still don't see that the scripture provides any support for evolution. Thank you for explaining the reasoning of those that do. You are welcome to debate my reasoning if you wish.

Perhaps,but somethings you did not answer or consider is that....

1)Why are no descendent's mentioned before Seth?
2)Where did Cain and Abel find wives?
3)If indeed their were other peoples,it is only logical that Cain would be afraid of Abel's descendents when he stated..
''that every one that findeth me shall slay me''
4)Cain stated ''every one that findeth me shall slay me'' he did not state Adam and Eve or mother and father will slay me.
5)What was the point of that statement if it dealt with future generations?
Or for that matter what was the point of the mark(Protection)Genesis 4:15 if this was about future generations?
6)Cain went in to the land of Nod and ''And Cain knew his wife'' so do you have answers or did you consider where Cain found a wife?

As for evolution,the idea that all came from Adam is evolution.
That all people of all races of all nations came from one man and one woman,that everything has it's origins from one human been - EVOLUTION.


Genesis 5:1:This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Adam in the Hebrew means....

121 'Adam aw-dawm' the same as 120; Adam the name of the first man, also of a place in Palestine:--Adam.

120 'adam aw-dawm' from 119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.):--X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.


119 'adam aw-dam' to show blood (in the face), i.e. flush or turn rosy:--be (dyed, made) red (ruddy).

Not everyone has the charateristc of turning rosy or showing blood in the face.

 

[dagelos]

While reading through some threads, I came across this statement

Despite reading the relevant passage several times, I fail to see how it supports evolution. Would someone explain to me, the reasoning behind the belief that Cain’s punishment supports evolution.

Read post 33 in this thread.

Genesis 4:14:Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Who was ''every one''?
Who would slay Cain?
Was Cain driven off the face of the earth?


Genesis 4:16-17:16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


Where did Cain find a wife?Why would he build a city for 2 people?

 

[Gozreht]

While reading through some threads, I came across this statement

Despite reading the relevant passage several times, I fail to see how it supports evolution. Would someone explain to me, the reasoning behind the belief that Cain’s punishment supports evolution.

It doesn't.

Genesis lists all the male descendants but never says where the women came from. Here it mentions Cain had a wife from the land of Nod (although it doesn't mention whether God make her out of dust too).

No. It does not say he had a wife FROM Nod. It just says he made love to her in Nod. You added words to scripture here.

Too much to quote from this thread that is wrong so I will just go on without doing it.

130 years after Adam had been formed is sometime around this event of Cain. It wasn't 150 or 250 years after Cain and Abel were born. It was 130 years after Adam was created. Read the scripture. Scripture says they had many sons and daughters. So scripture does say where all the women came from...Eve and assumably Adam.

Cain had killed Abel, brothers. And someone here thought it would be weird for Cain to be scared of his own family members????? It is called sibling rivalry, plus many generations could have been produced by now.

The large family that someone mentioned may be due to many grandchildren and great granchildren and great great grandchildren that Eve may not have known. So if she was upset then it may be because Abel was her first and favorite. She was angry with Cain, of course she would be emotional. WHy is this so hard to believe?

Here below again is what I have said so many times. It is from my teaching site:

One of the biggest obstacles for people to believe that evolution is not real or that Creation was done in six days is the Cain issue. The Bible says Cain had a wife when he was dispersed into the world and that there were other people in the world. This causes confusion for the weak minded. Genesis 4:14-17

• 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.
• 15 But the LORD said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.
• 16 So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
• 17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
  

Where did Cain get his wife if he went and found her in another land? Who were these other people? These are easily answered but one can not think with a 2011 mindset. Well, first of all he never found her in a different land. Cain's wife was from the family of Adam and Eve. No one knows exactly when this episode took place. All the Bible tells is that Seth replaced Cain as a son for Adam and Eve. But that was 130 years after Creation. Cain could have been 129 years old by this time or he may have been only 18. His wife could have been 18 (hopefully at least). Adam and Eve could have had hundreds of children who in turn could have had hundreds of children. Cain could have taken his third cousin thrice removed as his wife. This was not necessarily his own sister. But even if it was so what?

The law for incest was not passed down until another 2000 years with the time of the Exodus. There was no law because it was not needed. Scientifically speaking if Adam and Eve were perfect in genetics, i.e., no physical flaws or deformities yet, then their offspring had the greatest of chances of keeping "good" genes. This is why people could live for hundreds of years. Eventually, those recessive and flawed genes would find their way into the human genome. Then it would start causing defects and things like we know today. It's like making a copy of a copy of a copy. But the original copy can still do well. This also answers the other dilemma for these individuals who can not see past their own mind. The "other people" Cain is talking about is generations of offspring who will hear of his action. Some of them are already in the world since Adam and Eve perhaps had many children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, and so forth.


But if they had many children how come Seth is only the third male? It is only the third male we read about. Seth may have been number 162 for all we know. The problem is when people read this passage they read as though all of this took place right away just because it is only four chapters into Genesis. That is not necessarily true. We are not told one way or another.


Once one really looks at and understands these passages the dilemma of Cain no longer remains a dilemma, except for the stubborn.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

It doesn't.
No. It does not say he had a wife FROM Nod. It just says he made love to her in Nod. You added words to scripture here.

Too much to quote from this thread that is wrong so I will just go on without doing it.

130 years after Adam had been formed is sometime around this event of Cain. It wasn't 150 or 250 years after Cain and Abel were born. It was 130 years after Adam was created. Read the scripture. Scripture says they had many sons and daughters. So scripture does say where all the women came from...Eve and assumably Adam.

Cain had killed Abel, brothers. And someone here thought it would be weird for Cain to be scared of his own family members????? It is called sibling rivalry, plus many generations could have been produced by now.

If Cain's wife didn't come from Nod then where did she come from?

Besides - if all the women at the time were Adam and Eve's duaghters, then wouldn't that mean Cain and his descendants were married to their sisters? That's incest.

 

[Gozreht]

You didn't read the post I quoted from my site then. So let me shorten it with the parts that peratin to your question.

The law for incest was not passed down until another 2000 years with the time of the Exodus. There was no law because it was not needed.

Adam and Eve could have had hundreds of children who in turn could have had hundreds of children. Cain could have taken his third cousin thrice removed as his wife. This was not necessarily his own sister.

The woman who would be his wife could have been from anywhere by this point in time, but we assume she would be from where he was.

 

[1an]

You didn't read the post I quoted from my site then. So let me shorten it with the parts that peratin to your question.

The woman who would be his wife could have been from anywhere by this point in time, but we assume she would be from where he was.

Hello Gozreht, we have always got on alright in the past so let me ask you this. In Genesis chapter four where we read about Cain going to the land of Nod we read of people making the harp and pipe and working in brass and iron. While Cain was building a city the Egyptians were building a Pyramid.

This is what was happening in the Bronze Age in other civilizations as well and they may have been even more advanced like the Egyptians, the Babylonians and the Chinese so I am at a loss to know why you think the family of Adam and Eve were the only people around and that no other nations existed.

The Bible is a history of one nation, the Hebrew nation, and other nations have their histories as well for example I am reading that, "The first cities to house several tens of thousands were Memphis and Uruk by the 31st century BC" this is long before Cain and Able were even a twinkle in their fathers eye.

Cradle of civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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[Notedstrangeperson]

The woman who would be his wife could have been from anywhere by this point in time, but we assume she would be from where he was.

The Bible doesn't say his wife was his sister or relative, so there is no need to assume.

Another odd passage from Genesis 6:1-2: "When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose."

Who were the "daughters of humans"? The geneology accounts in the Bible only look at the male line, so the women they married were probably just non-Hebrews.

 

[dagelos]

It doesn't.
No. It does not say he had a wife FROM Nod. It just says he made love to her in Nod. You added words to scripture here.

Too much to quote from this thread that is wrong so I will just go on without doing it.

130 years after Adam had been formed is sometime around this event of Cain. It wasn't 150 or 250 years after Cain and Abel were born. It was 130 years after Adam was created. Read the scripture. Scripture says they had many sons and daughters. So scripture does say where all the women came from...Eve and assumably Adam.

Cain had killed Abel, brothers. And someone here thought it would be weird for Cain to be scared of his own family members????? It is called sibling rivalry, plus many generations could have been produced by now.

The large family that someone mentioned may be due to many grandchildren and great granchildren and great great grandchildren that Eve may not have known. So if she was upset then it may be because Abel was her first and favorite. She was angry with Cain, of course she would be emotional. WHy is this so hard to believe?

Here below again is what I have said so many times. It is from my teaching site:

I have something I would like to say on this....

You said '' So scripture does say where all the women came from...Eve and assumably Adam.''

It does not explain where Cain found a wife as the children were born in Adam's later years,NOT BEFORE SETH.

Genesis 5:4:And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

What you are doing is working by assumption!