Does Cains punishment support evolution?

Gozreht · Feb 16, 2012

dagelos said:
If it was generations apart,that would mean Cain stayed single,and then what?
Who was the ''every one'' that Cain was afraid of?(Genesis 4:14)

Genesis 4:17:And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Where did he find a wife?

Did you read anything I have posted so far here?????

Who said he was single. Scripture said he had a wife. It just doesn't say when he actually got one. But too many people are thinking he picked one up in Nod. It doesn't say that at all. You already answered your own question by the way. The "everyone" was all the people who were descendants of Adam and Eve. Please read my posts again and you will see this answer about his wife.

Gozreht · Feb 16, 2012

dagelos said:
That is only assumption.

Seth was the one who was born,the substitute for Abel.

Genesis 4:25:And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Why are no children mentioned before Seth?
The rest of the children were born in Adam's later years....

Genesis 5:4:And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

Yes. I see exactly what you mean and why you would feel that way. But scripture just doesn't endulge us enough to get the full picture of how many kids Adam and Eve had. How many brothers and sisters did Jesus have? Was he the "oldest" in his family? Maybe not. Maybe Joseph already had children. Some feel James in the book of Acts, not one of the original 12, was older. I have back up for that too but it is the same kind of situation. We know they were there but we do not know anything else about them because they are not part of the story (lesson). Seth was a replacement but only for Abel. Who replaced Cain???? We just don't know.

Gozreht · Feb 16, 2012

Notedstrangeperson said:
That's the thing - we don't know. The Bible doesn't say who she was. It's unlikely that it was his sister or relative though.

Why? Because you feel it can't happen or because there is proof?

Gozreht · Feb 16, 2012

dagelos said:
...then those people did not come from Adam and Eve.
Not everyone descended from Adam and Eve.

Even Cain in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,Hebrew is defined as....

7014 Qayin kah'-yin the same as 7013 (with a play upon the affinity to 7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe:--Cain, Kenite(-s).

Notice ''an Oriental tribe''

Oriental just means east. It doesn't mean Chinese. This holds no water. A place was named after him or someone else named Cain, so what?

jpcedotal · Feb 16, 2012

Simple issue of the "age" we have in mind when we think of Cain. I mean, how does one picture a person who may have been 200 or 300 or 500 when he went to Nod?

What "age" did he look? How does one process centuries of information and past experiences when one is 300+ years old?

We are arguing about something that we have no idea what it was like other than he was probably older than anyone on earth today...maybe even double or triple the age of the oldest human we personally know of.

Gozreht · Feb 16, 2012

dagelos said:
Well,there is a problem with the ''everyone came from Adam and Eve'' theology.
It uses evolution,Christian evolution,to support every one of every family and nation came from one man and
woman.i.e...negroes,Asians,Pygmies,natives,Tribal groups,Aboriginies etc etc

No it doesn't. It's called gene pool. Some people took their genetics to other places while other went another way and the genes were not able to remix until more modern times, especially here in the States.

Can neanderthal man be saved? Did neanderthal man come from Adam and Eve?Or what about Peking man?

The monk gave a great point. This is one that no one can argue about. God gave man a soul, and a spirit. Did the "ape-man" have a spirit? If He created a man that can't be saved then why create him?

Gozreht · Feb 16, 2012

dagelos said:
Jesus came only for Israel,not the world...

Matthew 15:24:But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Luke 1:68:Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Matthew 1:21:And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 2:6:And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Are you serious? What about the great commission? He told his apostles to go into ALL the world. Not just for Jews, but for the Gentile now as well.

Can you prove all people's are one species?Do you have any passages to back up that claim/theory?
Do you assume all people are one species(From Adam and Eve)?
If everyone is from one species,surely the neanderthal man or Peking man is related to Adam's family?

The Bible....it says that all m,an came from Adam and Eve.

jpcedotal · Feb 16, 2012

Evolution falls short because of simple observation. This planet and the life on it is deteriorating, not evolving. Man is a worse specimen today than he was 200 years ago, much less 6000 years ago...give or take a century or two.

"Evil" Cain really would not stand out in the world today, like he did back then.

1an · Feb 16, 2012

Gozreht said:
Did you read anything I have posted so far here?????

Who said he was single. Scripture said he had a wife. It just doesn't say when he actually got one. But too many people are thinking he picked one up in Nod. It doesn't say that at all. You already answered your own question by the way. The "everyone" was all the people who were descendants of Adam and Eve. Please read my posts again and you will see this answer about his wife.

There is no mention of a wife while he is living with his parents, scripture only mentions his brother, admittedly he could have been married while living at home but that still begs the question where did she come from?

The order of events as we have them is that Cain killed his brother, he fled to the land of Nod apparently on his own and then, and only then, we read of him having a wife.

.

Gozreht · Feb 16, 2012

1an said:
There is no mention of a wife while he is living with his parents, scripture only mentions his brother, admittedly he could have been married while living at home but that still begs the question where did she come from?

The order of events as we have them is that Cain killed his brother, he fled to the land of Nod apparently on his own and then, and only then, we read of him having a wife.

.

I would agree with you. And I have stated that as well.

Is the question where did she come from meaning "from what area" or "how was she born"? The answer to what area is we don't know, presumably near Cain's home since he found her before he was exiled. The answer to how was she born is by some decendancy of Adam and Eve, either their daughter or grand daughter, or great grandaughter, or great great grand daughter. Take your pick, we just don't know which one. But the Bible says all come from Adam and Eve, for she is the mother of all living (not animals like some are going to try and pin this on and make a mockery of it).

1an · Feb 16, 2012

jpcedotal said:
Evolution falls short because of simple observation. This planet and the life on it is deteriorating, not evolving. Man is a worse specimen today than he was 200 years ago, much less 6000 years ago...give or take a century or two.

"Evil" Cain really would not stand out in the world today, like he did back then.

This does it for me.

"During the 6th millennium BC, agriculture spread from the Balkans to Italy and Eastern Europe, and also from Mesopotamia to Egypt. World population was essentially stable at approximately 5 million, though some speculate up to 7 million."

"The 5th millennium BC saw the spread of agriculture from the Near East throughout southern and central Europe. Urban cultures in Mesopotamia and Anatolia flourished, developing the wheel. Copper ornaments became more common. Animal husbandry spread throughout Eurasia, reaching China. World population grew slightly throughout the millennium, maybe from 5 to 7 million people."

"The 4th millennium BC saw major changes in human culture. It marked the beginning of the Bronze Age and of writing. The city states of Sumer and the kingdom of Egypt were established and grew to prominence. Agriculture spread widely across Eurasia. World population in the course of the millennium doubled, approximately from 7 to 14 million people in the area surrounding them."

This is when Cain and Able were living. There were millions of people and Cain would not have any trouble finding a wife.

6th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.

1an · Feb 16, 2012

Gozreht said:
I would agree with you. And I have stated that as well.

Is the question where did she come from meaning "from what area" or "how was she born"? The answer to what area is we don't know, presumably near Cain's home since he found her before he was exiled. The answer to how was she born is by some decendancy of Adam and Eve, either their daughter or grand daughter, or great grandaughter, or great great grand daughter. Take your pick, we just don't know which one. But the Bible says all come from Adam and Eve, for she is the mother of all living (not animals like some are going to try and pin this on and make a mockery of it).

The Bible is correct but our understanding is not quite as it should be.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

If you notice he has not got a name as yet. This is primitive man and the word is "aw-dawm'" which has been translated as Adam. Unfortunately the two Adams, this one and the one in chapter four are not the same people.

It is a bit like you writing a history of America and beginning say in the 15th century with an introduction about the Big Bang and the formation of the earth and then going into Christopher Columbus lets say, and then writing 6,000 years of history. The reader thinks the events follow straight on after each other with Christopher Columbus being the first man but we know he wasn't.

.

jpcedotal · Feb 16, 2012

1an said:
This does it for me.

"During the 6th millennium BC, agriculture spread from the Balkans to Italy and Eastern Europe, and also from Mesopotamia to Egypt. World population was essentially stable at approximately 5 million, though some speculate up to 7 million."

"The 5th millennium BC saw the spread of agriculture from the Near East throughout southern and central Europe. Urban cultures in Mesopotamia and Anatolia flourished, developing the wheel. Copper ornaments became more common. Animal husbandry spread throughout Eurasia, reaching China. World population grew slightly throughout the millennium, maybe from 5 to 7 million people."

"The 4th millennium BC saw major changes in human culture. It marked the beginning of the Bronze Age and of writing. The city states of Sumer and the kingdom of Egypt were established and grew to prominence. Agriculture spread widely across Eurasia. World population in the course of the millennium doubled, approximately from 7 to 14 million people in the area surrounding them."

This is when Cain and Able were living.

6th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.

so.....u don't believe folks lived for centuries in ancient Biblical times?

1an · Feb 16, 2012

jpcedotal said:
so.....u don't believe folks lived for centuries in ancient Biblical times?

That is a different subject. If people did live 900 years for generations that would throw the age of the earth back even further.

.

dagelos · Feb 16, 2012

Fireinfolding said:
It still doesnt void the sins of the whole world or their fall being the recconciliation of the world.

The whole world? Passages?

dagelos · Feb 16, 2012

progmonk said:
Well no it doesn't but it does disprove your idea that Christ is only for those of Israel

Actually I was talking about how Christ was a pure human and that we can become like Christ. I don't really see how Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis have anything to do with it, I'm not sure whether they were imago dei

How does becoming like Christ have anything to do with descending from Adam?

dagelos · Feb 16, 2012

progmonk said:
I made a logical jump based on your insistence that only those descended of Israel are under Christ.

No.

By your reasoning only those who are descended of Israel can be Christian, I do not believe you can prove that you are.

In some ways yes

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

No.

I see,anyone who does not follow the ''religion of the world'' and say everyone is Israel,they are not Christian.

Read Matthew 15:24:But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Romans 9:11-13:
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob/Israel was chosen,not Esau.

Since when was the world,Israel?

You are using Gentiles like non-Jew,do you know what it means?

What do you say happened to the scattered abroad?

dagelos · Feb 16, 2012

1an said:
I don't doubt the ten lost tribes migrated into Europe but to suggest only they can be Born Again is clearly incorrect. The Bible speaks of a New Israel that includes all believers.

.

http://www.israelect.com/reference/ArnoldKennedy/'Born Again' or 'Begotten From Above'~.pdf - Born AGAIN OR BEGOTTEN FROM ABOVE?

dagelos · Feb 16, 2012

progmonk said:
It's slightly a different proposition and for the most part I'd agree with you. What I'm arguing against here is the idea that the ten lost tribes of Israel became the European Nations and therefore only those of European/Israel descent can be saved.

[FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]Assyrian Captivities[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica]

In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes. (2 Kings 17:6)

[FONT=arial, helvetica]The first archaeological evidence to establish a chronological link in the contacts between Assyria and Israel are found on inscriptions on the side of a limestone stele found at Nimrud, known as the "Black Obelisk." The stone was inscribed with the records of Shalmaneser the third and an illustration of the Israelite king Jehu bringing tribute to the Assyrian king. An inscription above the illustration says:

"This is Jehu (Iaua), the son of Khumri (Omri)."

[FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]Omri in Hebrew begins with the consonant, "Agin," formerly called "Gayin" which was pronounced with a guttural "H," that is "Gh" or "Kh." The Israelites would have naturally pronounced Omri as "Ghomri" which became "Khumri" in Assyrian. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]As this inscription was executed nearly a century before the captivity of Israel, we know now the reason secular historians found no mention of the exiled Israelites in ancient records. It was simply because the Assyrians who took the Israelites captive did not call them by that name. Historians are now aware of the fact that the Gamira were the same people, who, about 30 years later, during the reign of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, again were called Gimira. (Notice the slight changes in spelling). [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]We find in another and later Assyrian tablet that in the second year of the reign of this same king, which would be about 679 B.C., the Gimira, under a leader named "Teuspa," sought freedom by moving north; but the Assyrain army pursued and defeated them in the upper Euphrates district. Nevertheless, they reported a large number of the lsraelites escaped to the shores of the Black Sea. The Greeks also recorded the same activity including an invasion of Sardis, the capital of Lydia, in 645 B.C. In their records they refer to the Gamira as "Kimmerioi," which we translate into English as "Cimmerian." [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]About 600 B.C. the Lydians drove the Gamira, or Cimmerians, out of Asia Minor, where they settled in the Carpathian regions west of the Black Sea. We find them called in the second book of Esdras, the people of Ar-Sareth (2 Esdras 13:40-44).
[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]We now also know what happened to the larger body of Gamira or Israelites, that did not escape the Assyrians. They formed an alliance with Esarhaddon, the king, when he came under attack of the Medes and the Persians. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]This treaty allowed the Israelites to establish colonies in Sacasene in the north and Bactria in the east. With absolutely no help from the Israelites, Assyria fell in 612 B.C. Soon the Israelites themselves came under attack by the Medes. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]Now those that had settled in Sacasene moved north through the Dariel Pass into the steppe regions of south Russia. There they became known by the Greek name, "Scythians." [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]The Israelites that had settled in Bactria were forced north and east, and in the records of the Persians they were called Massagetae and Sakka. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]Archeology has solved two of the greatest archeological problems: First, what happened to the hundreds of thousands of Israelites who disappeared south of the Caucasus; and second, what was the origin of the Cimmerians and the mysterious nomadic tribes, known as Scythians, who suddenly appeared north of the Caucasus - both at the same time in history. They were one and the same people. They were Israelites. Now may I point out what the Bible has to say concerning these same people: [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica]"For lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth" (Amos 9:9).[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]Our history books pick up the story at this point, recording the westward migrations of the Scythians, as they came into collision with the Cimmerians, who had earlier settled west of the Black Sea. Their kinship lost over the centuries, the ensuing battles forced the Cimmerians west and north to become the Celts, Gauls, and Cimbri. By the end of the fourth century B.C., the Scythians had established themselves as the great and prosperous kingdom of Scythia. Later, the Sarmatians, these were a mixed, non- Israelitish people of Iranian origin. They in turn drove the Scythians northwest to the shores of the Baltic Sea. At this time in history, we find the Romans introduced the name "Germans" in place of the name Scythians, in order not to confuse the Scythians with the Sarmatians, who now occupied Scythia. Germanus, being the Latin name for "genuine," indicates the Germans were the genuine Scythians.
During this time the Celts were expanding in all directions from central Europe. Some of the Celts invaded Italy and sacked Rome in 390 B.C. Another group moved back into Asia Minor, in 280 B.C., and the Greeks called them "Galatians," as they did another group of Celts that had settled in Gaul, or modern France. This also indicates that Paul's letters to the Galatians were written to his kinsmen Israelites, or at least descendants of the earlier Galatians.
Some of the Celts moved into Spain and became known as Iberes, the Gaelic name for "Hebrews." Others poured into Britain to form the bedrock of the British race. Later, the Iberes moved into Ireland as Scots, and later into Northern Britain to establish the nation of Scotland.
Your history books also record the Germanic tribes breaking up into many divisions - the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, and Vikings, to name just a few. Other Germanic tribes later poured into the lands vacated by the Celts and established the Gothic nations of the Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Burgundians, and others.
The so-called "lost tribes of Israel" really, were never lost. They only lost their identity as they migrated westward over the centuries from the land of their captivity.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

dagelos · Feb 16, 2012

Gozreht said:
Did you read anything I have posted so far here?????

Who said he was single. Scripture said he had a wife. It just doesn't say when he actually got one. But too many people are thinking he picked one up in Nod. It doesn't say that at all. You already answered your own question by the way. The "everyone" was all the people who were descendants of Adam and Eve. Please read my posts again and you will see this answer about his wife.

Descendents from Adam and Eve?

Seth was the substitute for Abel(Genesis 4:25)

The rest of the children were born in Adam's later years,so how could the everyone be descendents of Adam and Eve?

Does Cains punishment support evolution?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Old School from the Backwoods - Christian Style

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Old School from the Backwoods - Christian Style

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Old School from the Backwoods - Christian Style

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency

Does Cains punishment support evolution?