Does being a Teetotaler Make One a Better Christian?

[topcare]

Jesus dis not turn water into grape juice, that is devilish lie started by people who hated alcohol. Christ created the best wine ever and there is absolutely nothing wrong with alcohol and Paul even tells Timothy (I believe it was) to drink Wine

 

[ViaCrucis]

It is some really serious stuff, ViaCrucis.... Sadly many Christians seem to think they can eat/drink anything they want, as long as they pray over it....somehow praying over it is going to make something unhealthy - healthy. But it doesn't work that way... For the most part, you can go to most any church and the people in the church are as sick and unhealthy as the people who are in the world... WHY? Because they eat like those in the world. God is no respecter of persons...if we choose to eat like the world then we can expect to be sick like the world...

I came back to this thread thinking that I had been entirely too harsh in my last post, as I wrote it with a knee-jerk reaction to what I perceived as grotesque moralism.

However then when I come across this, I'm not entirely sure that I was being too harsh.

This is a deeply troubling theology encapsulated in your posts that goes far beyond legalistic teetotalism.

Here are the things I expect to hear from my pastor on any given Sunday morning:

Jesus Christ, crucified and risen from the dead, for us.

If my pastor decides to play nutritionist and dietician and bogart the sermon toward such ends, I'm finding a new church.

Especially if that pastor has decided to be a quack dietician which seems to be prevalent these days in certain fringe circles of Christendom.

Here's the thing, if I want to down a giant plate of nachos, I can. And all wonky weirdos who are out there talking about how to "eat spiritual" are blowhards that I not only don't have to listen to, I have a spiritual obligation as a Christian to reject and ignore for the sake of the spiritual health of the Church.

Which is all to say, if I had a plate of greasy nachos and an ice cold beer right now, it would be going in my belly. And it would be nobody's business but mine, and my conscience before God would be clear. Because there are actual and real sins, drinking a beer and eating nachos? Not sins.

And I have no intention of allowing myself to be judged by the sorts of people St. Paul mentions in Colossians ch. 2.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Wine sometimes means GRAPE JUICE in the Bible, and sometimes it means ALCOHOL. Two very different things called by the same name....makes it a little confusing sometimes!

Perhaps you could explain how ancient bronze and iron age people living in the ancient near east were able to prevent the pressed juices of grapes from fermenting without pasteurization and refrigeration. Two technologies that did not exist until the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century.

Because here's what happens: I squeeze some grapes and get the juice. In the air all around me are natural yeasts that will settle in the juice, those yeasts will start to convert the natural sugars into alcohol. That means wine happens without human intervention, it requires human intervention to stop the natural fermentation process, and that can only happen by obstructing the growth of the yeast, such as by pasteurizing it; and secondly by keeping it sufficiently cold will inhibit potential further microbial growth.

Without these modern technologies, nature happens.

They no more drank grape juice in the Bible than I have a pet pink unicorn.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Seeing as I don't want to go to Hell, perhaps you could help me with this question.

What diet should I be on in order to be a True Christian(TM)? Should I do the Atkins? Should I avoid red meat altogether? Should I only eat green vegetables?

Since I want to go to heaven when I die, and since my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and thus to not take care of my body means I'm not on the road to Heaven, then this seems like some really serious stuff I should consider.

I'm overweight, obese even. Is my soul at risk for eternal damnation? Which also begs the question, why does God hate fat people? Or is it because Jesus only died for the physically fit? I'm a bit confused.

I ate some pizza the other day, I assume that definitely scored me low on the divine brownie point level.

I was about to have an ice cold Coca Cola, but seeing as it contains high fructose corn syrup and caffeine, I suppose I should rethink that--it will put my eternal soul in jeopardy after all.

And perhaps at this point you are able to see why conflating the temple language of St. Paul with physical fitness is of course absurd (it isn't what he means) and also why attempting to delineate a person's eternal destiny to matters of physical health to be wholly abominable.

Unless of course you really do want to explain to me why the Gospel doesn't apply to obsese people like myself. In which case I'm all ears. By all means, here's a shovel, you're welcome to keep digging a hole with it.

-CryptoLutheran

There is something wonderful about Lutheran sarcasm.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Perhaps you could explain how ancient bronze and iron age people living in the ancient near east were able to prevent the pressed juices of grapes from fermenting without pasteurization and refrigeration. Two technologies that did not exist until the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century.

Because here's what happens: I squeeze some grapes and get the juice. In the air all around me are natural yeasts that will settle in the juice, those yeasts will start to convert the natural sugars into alcohol. That means wine happens without human intervention, it requires human intervention to stop the natural fermentation process, and that can only happen by obstructing the growth of the yeast, such as by pasteurizing it; and secondly by keeping it sufficiently cold will inhibit potential further microbial growth.

Without these modern technologies, nature happens.

They no more drank grape juice in the Bible than I have a pet pink unicorn.

-CryptoLutheran

Except you are leaving out the mythical Bartholemew Bar Welch. Famed pasteurizer of grape juice circa 1AD.
Here something interesting. Take pasteurized grape juice, introduce a bit of yeast through air contact, you still get wine.

A quick and simple bit of research on the history of wine fully explains the old wine /new wine thing. Before glass bottles with cork stoppers were used, old wine generally was not the good wine. There was a good chance it would begin to turn sour. Old wine being good wine is rather modern and only with some of the reds. Whites are still best drunk young.
I've heard this theology many times. Seems someone is always willing to follow the puritan theology that it's just so bad for you. It's easy to point to an example , like old drunk Uncle Joe. But these odd doctrinal stories are children's stories. They were designed to keep children away from the evil elixir. What those promoting it don't understand is that children are not as stupid as we suppose. They also have seen Uncle James who drinks a bit openly and he's doing just fine. Making it mysterious, only attracts the child to it.
If you remove the alcohol from an alcoholic you've only cured a habit. It wasn't alcohol that caused his problem. It was being used (unsuccessfully)to cover or forget a problem. A pain that he/she couldn't deal with. Sometimes it's physical but usually it's psychological like a painful recurring memory. There is a reason alcoholism is so high in numbers among combat veteran, sex abuse victims and others who have witnessed or endured horrific events in their life. Frequent alcohol overuse is a symptom of a deeper problem.

 

[OGM]

Perhaps you could explain how ancient bronze and iron age people living in the ancient near east were able to prevent the pressed juices of grapes from fermenting without pasteurization and refrigeration. Two technologies that did not exist until the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century. Because here's what happens: I squeeze some grapes and get the juice. In the air all around me are natural yeasts that will settle in the juice, those yeasts will start to convert the natural sugars into alcohol. That means wine happens without human intervention, it requires human intervention to stop the natural fermentation process, and that can only happen by obstructing the growth of the yeast, such as by pasteurizing it; and secondly by keeping it sufficiently cold will inhibit potential further microbial growth. Without these modern technologies, nature happens. They no more drank grape juice in the Bible than I have a pet pink unicorn. -CryptoLutheran

All great points. I don't believe the pasteurization of grape juice happened until 1869. So I can't see them drinking grape juice in Biblical times.

As for non-alcoholic wine...you have to take normal alcoholic wine and extract the alcohol. Usually, it is done through distilling the wine to separate and remove the majority of the alcohol. Under U.S. Federal guidelines, non-alcoholic wine can still contain up to 0.5% of alcohol by volume.

It would be very expensive trying to remove ALL of the alcohol from a wine...even in 2014. Hence the 0.5% allowance.

My point is that I feel it is IMPOSSIBLE for all of this alcohol-free grape juice to be floating around 2000 years ago. Between the climate and the technology of the day...how?

As I explained earlier I don't drink because I just don't have a taste for alcohol. But even I can tell you that Jesus didn't turn the water in to the equivalent of WELCH'S GRAPE JUICE. The Bible said he turned it in to wine. I am going with that.

 

[prodromos]

Yes, for sure! Alcohol destroys brain cells...The Bible says, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. God's temple is holy. And you are that temple." 1 Corinthians 3:17.

The Herd Principle

A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

"In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first.

In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.

Cliff Clavin (Cheers)​

 

[Mama Kidogo]

The Herd Principle

A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

"In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first.

In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.

Cliff Clavin (Cheers)​

The wisdom of Cliff. I notice that beer also make us homily gals pretty. Gotta love those beer goggles.

 

[OGM]

...a lot of that going on! As far a drinking alcohol goes...I don't drink it because I had to drink NyQuil for several weeks straight when I was 6 years old. Back then it was 25% (50 proof). I had the flu and the doctor prescribed it, accidentally. After that I didn't like the taste of alcohol. That being said...I don't have a problem with people drinking responsibly. Besides, Jesus turned the water in to wine, not grape juice. So I can't see a glass of wine being sinful.

BTW if I get a particularly bad flu, I will take the version of NyQuil with alcohol over the alcohol-free version. It helps me sleep better and induces drowsiness.

If you gave me a glass of wine for dinner or a special event I would have no problem drinking it. But that is rare. Maybe 3 drinks a year, usually less.

However, I am not a Prohibition Nazi.

 

[ViaCrucis]

All great points. I don't believe the pasteurization of grape juice happened until 1869. So I can't see them drinking grape juice in Biblical times.

As for non-alcoholic wine...you have to take normal alcoholic wine and extract the alcohol. Usually, it is done through distilling the wine to separate and remove the majority of the alcohol. Under U.S. Federal guidelines, non-alcoholic wine can still contain up to 0.5% of alcohol by volume.

It would be very expensive trying to remove ALL of the alcohol from a wine...even in 2014. Hence the 0.5% allowance.

My point is that I feel it is IMPOSSIBLE for all of this alcohol-free grape juice to be floating around 2000 years ago. Between the climate and the technology of the day...how?

As I explained earlier I don't drink because I just don't have a taste for alcohol. But even I can tell you that Jesus didn't turn the water in to the equivalent of WELCH'S GRAPE JUICE. The Bible said he turned it in to wine. I am going with that.

And abstaining from alcohol is awesome. As long as it's one's personal choice and they haven't been manipulated into the position by heavy-handed moralism.

I rarely drink. I'll have a couple with "the guys" when we get together. But apart from that I almost never touch alcohol.

So you won't find me berating anyone who abstains, I believe it is a matter of personal conscience.

But it does bother me when people begin to moralize and presume to stand high above the rest of us handing down moral instruction concerning things God has never instructed in Holy Scripture. As though personal piety could be attained by obeying commandments that we invent ourselves, if I set the goalposts at arm's reach, I'm going to look pretty silly every time I pat myself on the back for scoring a goal--of course I did, I made up my own rules in order that I might win easier.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[prodromos]

I understand where you are coming from, MoreCoffee.... I don't believe that when Jesus turned water into "wine" that it was alcoholic wine...I believe it was grape juice. Weddings back then lasted a week. Can you imagine people drinking for a week straight and it not turning into a drunken brawl??? Never....Jesus would not officiate at something like that....

It only seems to be in modern Western cultures that people drink purely for the sake of drinking. Around the Mediterranean alcohol has traditionally only been consumed along with food. Having a full stomach dramatically reduces the rate at which alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream as well as physically limiting how much alcohol can go into the stomach. Plus I'm unclear where this idea that wedding banquets lasted a week comes from. Do you have anything to back up that assertion?

Wine sometimes means GRAPE JUICE in the Bible, and sometimes it means ALCOHOL. Two very different things called by the same name....makes it a little confusing sometimes!

No. Wine means wine.

 

[EddardStark]

Just interested in your thoughts.

Not in and of itself, no. It does increase your risk of becoming a pharisee, straining out gnats, but swallowing camels.

 

[EddardStark]

We are defiled by what we do and say, which reflects the condition of our hearts. We are not defiled by having a bacon cheeseburger and a beer.

I admire those who stick to keeping away from alcohol and to eating a clean and healthy diet. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking that wine isn't alcoholic. There is no exegetical, historical, or scientific reason to think that wine in the Bible is anything other than alcoholic wine. That only comes from a doctrinal bias being read back into the Scriptures.

This.
Also, take note that the steward of the feast mistook the wine Jesus had made, for the wine one usually puts out first IN ORDER to get people drunk enough that they don't taste how awful the wine that usually comes out later, is.

 

[Strong in Him]

Does being a Teetotaler Make One a Better Christian?

No.
I know I'll never get drunk, have a hangover, do silly things under the influence of drink or spend lots of money on it, but I don't believe that makes me better than anyone else.
There may be things I struggle with in my Christian walk which are not a problem for others. That's why we all need to help one another.

 

[Rick Otto]

I came back to this thread thinking that I had been entirely too harsh in my last post, as I wrote it with a knee-jerk reaction to what I perceived as grotesque moralism.

However then when I come across this, I'm not entirely sure that I was being too harsh.

This is a deeply troubling theology encapsulated in your posts that goes far beyond legalistic teetotalism.

Here are the things I expect to hear from my pastor on any given Sunday morning:

Jesus Christ, crucified and risen from the dead, for us.

If my pastor decides to play nutritionist and dietician and bogart the sermon toward such ends, I'm finding a new church.

Especially if that pastor has decided to be a quack dietician which seems to be prevalent these days in certain fringe circles of Christendom.

Here's the thing, if I want to down a giant plate of nachos, I can. And all wonky weirdos who are out there talking about how to "eat spiritual" are blowhards that I not only don't have to listen to, I have a spiritual obligation as a Christian to reject and ignore for the sake of the spiritual health of the Church.

Which is all to say, if I had a plate of greasy nachos and an ice cold beer right now, it would be going in my belly. And it would be nobody's business but mine, and my conscience before God would be clear. Because there are actual and real sins, drinking a beer and eating nachos? Not sins.

And I have no intention of allowing myself to be judged by the sorts of people St. Paul mentions in Colossians ch. 2.

-CryptoLutheran

It's a sin if God actually really wants you eating celery and drinking a V-8.

 

[Melethiel]

I understand where you are coming from, MoreCoffee.... I don't believe that when Jesus turned water into "wine" that it was alcoholic wine...I believe it was grape juice. Weddings back then lasted a week. Can you imagine people drinking for a week straight and it not turning into a drunken brawl??? Never....Jesus would not officiate at something like that....

Wine sometimes means GRAPE JUICE in the Bible, and sometimes it means ALCOHOL. Two very different things called by the same name....makes it a little confusing sometimes!

Grape juice was impossible prior to the invention of pasteurization about 100 years ago. Grapes begin to ferment on the wine. New wine is even more alcoholic than aged wine.

 

[brinny]

Just interested in your thoughts.

Ok, i had to look it up and found this from the linked site:

"pledged to total abstinence from intoxicating drink,"

Online Etymology Dictionary

A question:

What is a "better" Christian. IS there such a thing?

 

[freezerman2000]

Ok, i had to look it up and found this from the linked site:



Online Etymology Dictionary

A question:

What is a "better" Christian. IS there such a thing?

If I was REQUIRED to take a pledge of being a teetotaler,They would be seeing my back as I walked away..

A better Christian?..I hope not..I like to believe that ALL of god's children are precious and equal in his sight.If not,I guess I'm worshiping the wrong one.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, for sure! Alcohol destroys brain cells...The Bible says, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. God's temple is holy. And you are that temple." 1 Corinthians 3:17.

As Christians, our bodies are the temple of God and it is our responsibility to take care of our bodies...

Drinking socially is the first step towards becoming an alcoholic...and like you said...every instance of drunkenness in the Bible is associated with someone committing some pretty bad sins...

Alcohol and Christianity DON'T go together...never have and never will....Yes, there are some who want to think they can have their alcohol and still be on the road to Heaven...but sooner or later, they will find out they were wrong...I just hope they find out before it is too late...

1st Corinthians Chapter 6

12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

destroying the body related to sexual immorality, which makes sense because corinth even had a phrase in the greek vernacular which meant to "do it like a corinthian" they were famous for their sexual immorality .

see also

Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. (1 Timothy 5:23)

Paul spoke of not drinking to excess but was not a prohibitionist .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

if you want to make up rules, Paul gave us a guideline for that

Romans 13

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

basically, if you're drinking to the point of hurting yourself then just stop it . some blood types and body types can enjoy it more than others . i cannot enjoy it at all .. however, i won't impose my personal choice on others .

though one could under the basis of having "weak faith" i don't have weak faith and have no need of people to stop drinking for the basis of me to believe in God . my faith isn't that weak. people drinking alcohol does not cause me to stumble .. however, it does give me a bit of a buzz because i feel what others do .