Kaon

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Actually, it is. See the "Must Read Apologetics Statement of Purpose"?
MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose
Christian Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with the rational defense of the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints. The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs. Christians may start threads to present an argument in support of the Christian faith.
This section of the website - not the whole website, but this part of it - is made so that we can attack your beliefs (with reason and logic and politeness, of course) and so you can defend them.

"...to give non-Christians the opportunity to star threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs"​

does not translate to

this forum is about nonbelievers attacking Christianity and believers defending it
Read it again: it gives all parties the opportunity to engage in this type of conversation (apologies for the faith) when a question of faith is raised. That doesn't mean we are responsible for entertaining an argument, or an attack.

And, as I said, the Redeemer (the one we follow) has already told us

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
So, when the line of questioning/discussion becomes foolish, we are called to opt out and leave the conversation (e.g. concede and forgo ego). The Redeemer definitely doesn't condone us going bac and forth about minutia with entities that allegedly don't know Him.
 
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Kaon

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Oh, sure. You don't have to spend your time attempting to prove Christianity to be true - even though the Bible tells you that you should.

1 Peter 3:15 does not say "keep going on and on, back and forth with a non-believer when you tell them why you believe, but they do not 1) want to hear it, 2) dismiss it, or 3) use it as an excuse to attack the faith. That may be the luxury you may want, but that is definitely not what is said in 1 Peter 3:15. Read it again, and the verses around it for context:

Finally, [be] ye all likeminded, compassionate, loving as brethren, tenderhearted, humbleminded:

not rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling; but contrariwise blessing; for hereunto were ye called, that ye should inherit a blessing

For, He that would love life, And see good days, Let him refrain his tongue from evil, And his lips that they speak no guile:

And let him turn away from evil, and do good; Let him seek peace, and pursue it.

For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, And his ears unto their supplication: But the face of the Lord is upon them that do evil.

And who is he that will harm you, if ye be zealous of that which is good?

But even if ye should suffer for righteousness' sake, blessed [are ye:] and fear not their fear, neither be troubled;

but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: [being] ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:

having a good conscience; that, wherein ye are spoken against, they may be put to shame who revile your good manner of life in Christ.

1 Peter 3:8-16
Peter is talking about tribulation Christians will have to face - not pedestrian arguments for argument's sake. Moreover, the answer one gives is (as a believer) is the answer - whether ignorant or erudite:

All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. Matthew 5:37​

If, after we have given a testimony and answered genuine questions, one remains unfilled, then it is not our responsibility to beat the answers into you. There could be a myriad of reasons why the message is lost, and so that would be the time to let the Father do things. After all, those who are His are already His, and will be His.

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. Matthew 7:6​

I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. Matthew 10:16​

Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Timothy 2:14​

However, avoid pointless discussions. For people will become more and more ungodly. 2 Timothy 2:16​

But the purpose of this forum is for you to do so. You don't have to, even so. You can come here and chat about whatever happens to be on your mind if you wish. but never the less, nonbelievers attacking Christianity and Christians defending it is the purpose of this forum.

Still, this particular thread is a bit different. It's asking if you think apologetics is a worthwhile pursuit. You don't. Okay. Bye for now, then.

Nonbelievers attacking Christianity and Christians defending it is not the purpose of this forum: otherwise, this forum is asking Christians to do something the Redeemer, the prophets and the Most High has told us not to do - explicitly and implicitly. You come to argue and attack perhaps, but apologetics are for genuine people (even critical) that are seeking genuine answers about questions, qualms or insecurities they may have in the faith.

The purpose of this forum isn't to engage in spiritual triviality - not by the site's standards (I would assume), and definitely not by the Redeemer's standards. We aren't required to nurture and cater to chips on shoulders about the faith - that needs to be reconciled first by the individual. There is a discernible difference between a critical non-believer seeking answers (even if we don't have all of them), and someone looking to disprove something.
 
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Caliban

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I don't know who's scared of discussion, 'cuz I ain't one of them. I'm also not 'scared' to be given someone else's [skeptical] framework, ignore the Bible, and plow into that person's understanding of the world, epistemology, axiologically, and maybe metaphysically. That's what I did with another atheist who used to come around these parts. Interestingly enough, we discussed in a PM together Loftus' OTF, and by the time we were halfway through, he gave up because he could see at least half my points about the weakness of Loftus' argument.

Personally, I really would like to have an honest and peaceable discussion WITHOUT all of the imputations and insinuations about how stupid or esoteric or illogical or irrelevant or needless my own approach to the Christian Faith is. On my part, one reason I get a bit peeved is NOT because I think most of you skeptics are ignorant or uneducated, but because you are educated and you refuse, sometimes utterly refuse to deeply and fully engage another angle on things that is also educated. And frankly, I don't get that.
I am not convinced that Christians on this forum are capable of such a discussion with an atheist (and this can go both ways). Both hold different concepts of reality. Theists on this forum often decry naturalism and merely want to poke holes in such arguments. Atheists often just want to takedown spurious claims. Nobody steel mans their opponents position and almost everyone gets angry when their opponent criticizes their ideas. Theists often appeal to philosophy and many atheists don't think philosophy can do anything in support of religious claims. How do we move forward?
 
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Caliban

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Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
I love when Christians trot out this passage--the hatred is palpable and absurd.
 
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Kaon

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I love when Christians trot out this passage--the hatred is palpable and absurd.

No, you don't love it; you are emoting and, by consequence, showing your ignorance of some things.

It isn't hatred: the Book of Enoch describes every nation (people) as an animal: the elect people as sheep, the disciples/prophets/teachers as rams, and the Redeemer as the shepherd - the only human in the prophecy/story. If you have only been exposed to the canonical text, you wouldn't know this book.

The Redeemer (who is speaking here) is alluding to this book - because the disciples would have know the exact context in which He was speaking. They would have read the Book of Enoch - rather been told the details by oral tradition primarily, and "scroll" secondarily.

In other words, the Redeemer was speaking in parables, not with malice. I used it to mean that one shouldn't waste something that is precious on someone who couldn't care less about the worth you have in it - not that people are literal animals. That should have been clear in the context.
 
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Caliban

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No, you don't love it; you are emoting and, by consequence, showing your ignorance of some things.

It isn't hatred: the Book of Enoch describes every nation (people) as an animal: the elect people as sheep, the disciples/prophets/teachers as rams, and the Redeemer as the shepherd - the only human in the prophecy/story. If you have only been exposed to the canonical text, you wouldn't know this book.

The Redeemer (who is speaking here) is alluding to this book - because the disciples would have know the exact context in which He was speaking. They would have read the Book of Enoch - rather been told the details by oral tradition primarily, and "scroll" secondarily.

In other words, the Redeemer was speaking in parables, not with malice. I used it to mean that one shouldn't waste something that is precious on someone who couldn't care less about the worth you have in it - not that people are literal animals. That should have been clear in the context.
There is no "Redeemer" speaking--it is a human who lived thousands of years prior to the discoveries of the modern world. How can you take this seriously? It is a myopic text you cited and has little value for living people today. All you do is make assertions without any evidence for your claims. This is why educated people don't but in to you credulous and antiquated ideas. I am not emoting; I am applying skepticism, providing evidence. and giving a rational for the evidence and claims. You have blind faith and supposition.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I am not convinced that Christians on this forum are capable of such a discussion with an atheist (and this can go both ways).
Agreed. I would just add that the reason this is the case is that some Christians, simply because they're human, will be like any other persons in holding to varying views about their own faith, each incorporating a different 'kind' of epistemology (or metaphysics or axiology) in line more or less with their chosen 'denominational' ties.

Being that this is the case, I agree with you that there is a [subset] of Christians who more than likely won't be "capable" of having a discussion with an atheist such as yourself. However, I'm pretty sure that despite my occasional heated, passionate, even vitriolic outbursts, I'm in a different subset altogether. So, there's no good reason for me to not be "capable" of having a more reasonable discussion with an atheist.

Both hold different concepts of reality.
Maybe. But doesn't just about everybody? Personally, I don't know of anyone who has an identical view of the world with another person, down to even the slightest detail.

Theists on this forum often decry naturalism and merely want to poke holes in such arguments.
Ok. So, "testing" ideas is out of the question, then?

Atheists often just want to takedown spurious claims.
And why do you think this is? Shouldn't they do MORE THAN that and not just that?

Nobody steel mans their opponents position and almost everyone gets angry when their opponent criticizes their ideas.
That could be, but honestly, not one person has indicated to me that they'd like to "check out" my books, my authors, my scholars ... read them in full and have a bona-fide discussion. No, my sources get ignored and pawned off as being esoteric [or flat-out irrelevant] and somehow unworthy of even receiving a scratch of investigation.

As far as 'steel-manning' an opponent's position is concerned, I'm all FOR engaging, investigating, researching and scouring another person's position. But what happens so often is that when I ask for sources, I get the "hedge treatment" by skeptics where they tell me..............................they don't HAVE to give me their sources so that I can actually chomp down on 300 page treatise that they themselves have read and have been deeply influenced by. So, I sit here. And I wait. And I wait. And I wait. And I wait.

Theists often appeal to philosophy and many atheists don't think philosophy can do anything in support of religious claims. How do we move forward?
They do? Haven't you been keeping up with the Street Epistemology movement that being proffered among atheists lately, and among all their friends on Youtube? :dontcare:....besides, philosophy is something that we ALL do every day, to varying degrees. It's essentially "the act of making evaluations about the world" in which we all live ...
 
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Kaon

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There is no "Redeemer" speaking--it is a human who lived thousands of years prior to the discoveries of the modern world. How can you take this seriously? It is a myopic text you cited and has little value for living people today. All you do is make assertions without any evidence for your claims.

Are you sure it is the text that is myopic?

You may not know how to entertain Something beyond your sphere of possibility, but there exists One that has already done the work to redeem the elect of the Most High. It isn't my job to convince you of that; I cannot convince you. You are responsible for your own spiritual trajectory.

This is why educated people don't but in to you credulous and antiquated ideas. I am not emoting; I am applying skepticism, providing evidence. and giving a rational for the evidence and claims. You have blind faith and supposition.

You have a salt and vinegar chip on your shoulder for the way religion has disillusioned you. I know how that feels, but like I said: agnosticism and/or atheism is a step in the enlightenment process. Don't stew in your juices and allow yourself to truly miss out on getting to the next level by restricting your thinking to the simplicity you have already expressed.

You asked a question in the OP; I answered. You didn't like the answer, so now you are projecting and saying things you truly don't know.
 
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Caliban

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Ok. So, "testing" ideas is out of the question, then?
I am always asking theists to provide any testable evidence for their many claims. I have never once received any--never once.

That could be, but honestly, not one person has indicated to me that they'd like to "check out" my books, my authors, my scholars ... read them in full and have a bona-fide discussion. No, my sources get ignored and pawned off as being esoteric [or flat-out irrelevant] and somehow unworthy of even receiving a scratch of investigation.
I am not sure this is the place to discuss 300 page books. People here generally want to take one claim at a time and address whether it leads to truth. If I wanted to engage with a philosophers ideas--I'd read their book. But here, we should probably just engage with one another. I don't want to be given a book assignment--I'd prefer to know what you think and talk about that.

They do? Haven't you been keeping up with the Street Epistemology movement that being proffered among atheists lately, and among all their friends on Youtube? :dontcare:....besides, philosophy is something that we ALL do every day, to varying degrees. It's essentially "the act of making evaluations about the world" in which we all live ...

Street Epistemology is an effective tool that works for any belief. You could use it to discover whether someone who advocates for gun rights or global warming has arrived at their conclusion for good reasons. That might be a good thread to start and discuss. What I mean by atheists generally not appreciating a philosophical approach to supernatural claims is that, although philosophy is interesting and has provided humanity with some excellent critical thinking tools, it does not seem to actually support theistic claims well. Theists however often rely on philosophical arguments for God.
 
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Caliban

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Are you sure it is the text that is myopic?

You may not know how to entertain Something beyond your sphere of possibility, but there exists One that has already done the work to redeem the elect of the Most High. It isn't my job to convince you of that; I cannot convince you. You are responsible for your own spiritual trajectory.
I used to be really good at entertain such thoughts as a Christian. I have however, worked on that.

You have a salt and vinegar chip on your shoulder for the way religion has disillusioned you.
I thought that might bother you. That is in response to you swine and pearls statement. Unlike Christians, I don't have to turn the other cheek. How's that working for you?
 
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Kaon

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I used to be really good at entertain such thoughts as a Christian. I have however, worked on that.

Well, everyone has their limits.


I thought that might bother you. That is in response to you swine and pearls statement. Unlike Christians, I don't have to turn the other cheek. How's that working for you?

Interesting...

It didn't bother me; I understand you are just projecting. Even here, you are showing exactly why your OP may come off as insincere. I said exactly what I meant: you have a salt and vinegar chip on your shoulder from how religion has disillusioned you. You are not unique in that respect, and neither is your general attitude as an "ex-Christian". What is happening to you is you are in a limbo of enlightenment, and you are questioning everything you encounter against your world reality, what is being said, what you have been told, and how that affects you and your thinking. Excellent. This, again, is not unique; however, you shouldn't reside at this "agnostic" step in self-discovery and learning. [Human] Logic and reason is handicaps your thinking.

If you were as aware as you think you are, you would have known that my faith icon says "other religion". That is because I am allegedly too much of a heretic for the Christians on these forums. (This is how I know you don't get what I mean by disillusionment via religion). What that means is that no one really actually knows what I am saying, and/or few actually bother to ask in a sincere manner. It is a shame we couldn't explore what that meant in terms of the insight that it could have provided into your OP: but, again, this is not a unique situation. I do not "cast pearls before swine" because it is wrong; when people don't care there is no reason to give them treasure they do not treasure.

You are telling me the Redeemer is as basic as you are; you do not treasure Him. Why do you expect me to 1) dispense the energy to emote based on your behavior, and 2) explain anything to you beyond the superficiality aforementioned (which can likely be found by a google search)? That is what "don't cast pearls before swine" means: you reserve what you treasure for people who appreciate it. It is a parable; an multi-dimensional metaphor. No one is calling people animals.

I have answered you several times over; you do not like the answers, so now you are trying to project your frustration onto me. It's a missed opportunity.
 
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Nonbelievers attacking Christianity and Christians defending it is not the purpose of this forum
Of course it is! That's what this place is for. Polite, reasoned, logic-and-evidence-based attack. ie, debating.
The purpose of this forum isn't to engage in spiritual triviality - not by the site's standards (I would assume), and definitely not by the Redeemer's standards. We aren't required to nurture and cater to chips on shoulders about the faith - that needs to be reconciled first by the individual.
Of course you aren't required to address our hard-hitting criticisms of Christian beliefs. You don't have to be here at all.
But whether you choose to visit here or not, that is the purpose of this forum.
There is a discernible difference between a critical non-believer seeking answers (even if we don't have all of them), and someone looking to disprove something.
I think you need reminding of the purpose of these forums:
"The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs."

People seeking to disprove Christianity are most welcome here, as long as they are polite. This place was set up specially for them. While there may be seekers here who wish to ask questions to learn things, arguably this is not the ideal forum for them. This place might be better, the "Exploring Christianity" section.
Exploring Christianity Forum Statement of Purpose
This is a forum where non-Christian Seekers are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christian members (see Faith groups list) can enter into discussion with them on these questions. The primary focus of this forum is Christian evangelism and discipleship, not to debate Christian Theology or challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity. If any non-Christian member would like to challenge Christianity, they may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum
.
 
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Kaon

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Of course it is! That's what this place is for. Polite, reasoned, logic-and-evidence-based attack. ie, debating.

Of course you aren't required to address our hard-hitting criticisms of Christian beliefs. You don't have to be here at all.

I think you need reminding of the purpose of these forums:
"The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs."

People seeking to disprove Christianity are most welcome here, as long as they are polite. This place was set up specially for them. While there may be seekers here who wish to ask questions to learn things, arguably this is not the ideal forum for them. This place might be better, the "Exploring Christianity" section.

Exploring Christianity Forum Statement of Purpose
This is a forum where non-Christian Seekers are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christian members (see Faith groups list) can enter into discussion with them on these questions. The primary focus of this forum is Christian evangelism and discipleship, not to debate Christian Theology or challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity. If any non-Christian member would like to challenge Christianity, they may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum
.

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It seems you are looking for a fight; you want to attack Christianity - which is perfectly fine with me, but apparently not on any of these forums. It is easily discernible who wants to simply argue for argument's sake (because of past disillusionment, abuses and/or lies experienced by certain persons of faith). Very few people waste their energy attacking something they don't care about, so in that respect I completely understand your position. However, I won't provide more than superficiality since I already know the boundaries of our conversation.

There are actually quite a few agnostic, atheist, seeking, other-faith religious persons republican, democrats, liberals, conservatives, etc. that I vehemently disagree with, but I can tell they are just demanding answers as opposed to looking for a fight - the way they ask questions and respond to things that don't necessarily satisfy them is mature. I enjoy those debates, even if I have to concede.

Finesse. Couth. Maturity. Refinement. Confidence. Erudition. Patience.

Those aforementioned qualities make a good debate capable teaching, even if it gets heated - because there is also a mutual respect that comes with those who can have a debate capable of teaching. Someone will stop the exchange before either one of them look like a fool.
 
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Caliban

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"...to give non-Christians the opportunity to star threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs"
does not translate to

this forum is about nonbelievers attacking Christianity and believers defending it
The fact that you view our questions about the extraordinary claims of Christianity as an attack is reflective of an inability to engage in confident public discourse. If you don't want to engage with atheists and skeptics in a meaningful way--then don't. Your insults and abrasiveness is not in keeping with a dignified exchange of ideas. You have lost your balance and are relying on insults--not arguments. I welcome any evidence you might provide for the supernatural claims of Christianity. I have asked you for this several times--all you do is attempt to do is perform a clumsy pirouette and claim we are on the attack. You could simple engage honestly with us--we are being honest after all. We have clearly said that we don't believe, but are willing to discuss it. We are on a Christian forum after all. We are here to talk--not throw stones. Why do you believe?
 
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The fact that you view our questions about the extraordinary claims of Christianity as an attack is reflective of an inability to engage in confident public discourse. If you don't want to engage with atheists and skeptics in a meaningful way--then don't.
A perfect response. Thank you. I really do think @Kaon has debating confused with enquiring. Fortunately, as I said, there are separate forums on this site for people who do want to ask questions about Christianity, as opposed to challenging its assumptions.
 
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Kaon

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The fact that you view our questions about the extraordinary claims of Christianity as an attack is reflective of an inability to engage in confident public discourse. If you don't want to engage with atheists and skeptics in a meaningful way--then don't. Your insults and abrasiveness is not in keeping with a dignified exchange of ideas. You have lost your balance and are relying on insults--not arguments. I welcome any evidence you might provide for the supernatural claims of Christianity. I have asked you for this several times--all you do is attempt to do is perform a clumsy pirouette and claim we are on the attack. You could simple engage honestly with us--we are being honest after all. We have clearly said that we don't believe, but are willing to discuss it. We are on a Christian forum after all. We are here to talk--not throw stones. Why do you believe?

Interesting...

I hope you find what you are looking for.
 
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Kaon

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A perfect response. Thank you. I really do think @Kaon has debating confused with enquiring. Fortunately, as I said, there are separate forums on this site for people who do want to ask questions about Christianity, as opposed to challenging its assumptions.

Didn't you say that the purpose of this forum is for non-believers to attack the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend against the attack by nonbelievers?

Oh, sure. You don't have to spend your time attempting to prove Christianity to be true - even though the Bible tells you that you should. But the purpose of this forum is for you to do so. You don't have to, even so. You can come here and chat about whatever happens to be on your mind if you wish. but never the less, nonbelievers attacking Christianity and Christians defending it is the purpose of this forum.

Still, this particular thread is a bit different. It's asking if you think apologetics is a worthwhile pursuit. You don't. Okay. Bye for now, then.

You said that, not me (I hope others have the answer to their questions as well). So, in reality, you were the one who insinuated this forum is about attacking Christianity - not me. Now you want to say it is about inquiring and debating? Oh no no no. And, the Redeemer specifically councils against arguing for argument's sake, and telling people things who don't appreciate or take seriously the information.

You want to fight; you are not interested in debate or inquiry by your own admission. Very interesting. A disillusionment with religion is no excuse for ignorance, or a passive-aggressive attack on a faith for which one does not subscribe.

This is why I said you (and a couple of others) won't get anything except superficiality from me: somehow you miss what you have already said (as well as others). As I said, I understand where you are in your pursuit for what you think is truth. However, agnosticism and atheism is supposed to be a step in finding the truth; residing in agnosticism or atheism means you never found the answers to your questions (for whatever reason - ignorance, trauma and disillusionment, general disdain, etc.).

Remember, this is what you said:

Oh, sure. You don't have to spend your time attempting to prove Christianity to be true - even though the Bible tells you that you should. But the purpose of this forum is for you to do so. You don't have to, even so. You can come here and chat about whatever happens to be on your mind if you wish. but never the less, nonbelievers attacking Christianity and Christians defending it is the purpose of this forum.

Still, this particular thread is a bit different. It's asking if you think apologetics is a worthwhile pursuit. You don't. Okay. Bye for now, then.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
 
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Didn't you say that the purpose of this forum is for non-believers to attack the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend against the attack by nonbelievers?



You said that, not me (I hope others have the answer to their questions as well). So, in reality, you were the one who insinuated this forum is about attacking Christianity - not me. Now you want to say it is about inquiring and debating? Oh no no no. And, the Redeemer specifically councils against arguing for argument's sake, and telling people things who don't appreciate or take seriously the information.

You want to fight; you are not interested in debate or inquiry by your own admission. Very interesting. A disillusionment with religion is no excuse for ignorance, or a passive-aggressive attack on a faith for which one does not subscribe.

This is why I said you (and a couple of others) won't get anything except superficiality from me: somehow you miss what you have already said (as well as others). As I said, I understand where you are in your pursuit for what you think is truth. However, agnosticism and atheism is supposed to be a step in finding the truth; residing in agnosticism or atheism means you never found the answers to your questions (for whatever reason - ignorance, trauma and disillusionment, general disdain, etc.).

Remember, this is what you said:


I hope you find what you are looking for.
What a strange collection of beliefs you have.
1. What on earth do you imagine I mean by "attacking Christianity"?
2. Atheism is supposed to be a step towards finding the truth? You mean, you think atheists say to themselves, "I don't believe in God, so I'd better search until I find a God to believe in"?
3. You think I'm an atheist because I have experienced some trauma? Have you spoken with many atheists before?

Can I suggest you review the apologetics statement of purpose, and maybe browse a few threads here to get a sense of what is going on? You seem confused.
 
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