Does anyone actually believe Jack Chick's theology?

[Hammster]

The prodigal son did seek forgiveness with his father.

The prodigal son said:
“I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,” (Luke 15:18).

“And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.” (Luke 15:21).

But he didn’t seek forgiveness. He did admit he was wrong, but asked for enough mercy to at least be allowed to be a servant. Had he asked for forgiveness, he would have expected to be restored.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The invitation to believe the Gospel has gone out into all the world, but those who reject the Gospel will not be saved.

Is salvation found in our subjective power to believe, or is salvation found in the objective work of Christ?

Just making some kind a profession of Christianity and joining a church won't save anyone either.

I didn't say that it did. I believe that Jesus Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead is what saves; and this is given to us as pure gift, as grace, which God appropriates to us through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My point still stands in post #180.
The prodigal son did seek forgiveness.
It’s right there in Luke 15.

 

[Hammster]

My point still stands in post #180.
The prodigal son did seek forgiveness.
It’s right there in Luke 15.

No he didn’t. My point still stands in post 181. Just read Luke 15.

 

[zoidar]

But he didn’t seek forgiveness. He did admit he was wrong, but asked for enough mercy to at least be allowed to be a servant. Had he asked for forgiveness, he would have expected to be restored.

When I ask my dad for forgiveness I don't expect that dad will give me the same privileges again. If I expect that my apology isn't sincere. Asking for forgivess means I'm willing to take the consequence of my wrongdoing, but asking for mercy so I don't have to.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus says:
“And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.” (John 8:35).

What kind of servant is Jesus referring to here?

“Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.” (John 8:34).

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42).

In other words, the Son of man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM them which do iniquity (sin) and they shall be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. So we see here clearly that those who do sin or iniquity in Christ's kingdom will be gathered out of Christ's kingdom at the Judgement. This will happen before Christ can give His Kingdom back to God the Father.

Here is a true son:

“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.” (1 John 2:29).

Obviously if one is doing sin and righteousness at the same time, they are not doing righteousness. For Jesus says you will know false prophets by their fruit. For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15).

But according to Belief Alone-ism, one can disobey God and still be saved. So the apostle John must have written 1 John 3:15 in error. But I believe what John says and not popular Christianity.

You yourself have testified that one can willfully and knowingly commit (venial) sins and all is well with God. So, it appears that you are a hypocrite.

 

[Hammster]

When I ask my dad for forgiveness I don't expect that dad will give me the same privaleges again. If I expect that my apology isn't sincere. Asking for forgivess means I'm willing to take the consequence of my wrongdoing, but asking for mercy so I don't have to.

The thing is, based on what’s in the text, he wasn’t really sorry. He was sorry for his circumstances, though. And he thought being a servant of his father was better than being in his current position.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seems like these people were trying to attain justification by works similar to the Galatians in Galatians 5. So if they were in fact trusting in their works for salvation then I can see how this could be a condemning act. Now if they had done these works out of a genuine love for others then I don’t think this would be a similar case to Galatians 5 and they would not fall into condemnation.

Well, I did skim through and re-read certain parts of the tract again. It does appear that the main characters (who were condemned by God) in the story trusted in Works Alone (without God’s grace) to save them and they did not think they had to be saved by God’s grace initially and foundationally. For they thought other people in other non-Christian religions doing good works can lead to salvation. That is of course nonsense. Granted, there are liberal churches out there who think all will be saved. There are are Christian groups out there that appear to deny being saved by God’s grace and they make it all about works in regards to salvation.

However, most churches today actually are in the opposite end of the spectrum by the fact that they think they can turn God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). They believe they do not have to do any good works for the Lord as a part of God’s plan of salvation (after they are saved by God’s grace). They believe they can just remain sinners and or do nothing for God and still be saved. James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Galatians 5:4 was in reference to being justified by the Old Law (the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal). Galatians 5:2 says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law (i.e. the Law of Christ - Galatians 6:2, Romans 8:2, 1 Corinthians 9:21). Paul also says that those who commit certain sins will not inherit the Kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21. Paul says there are vain deceivers who can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work (Titus 1:16). Obviously this suggests we should not have the same bad characteristic as vain deceivers, right? For are vain deceivers saved? I would say not. While we are initially saved and stand upon the foundation of the gospel (Which is believing that Jesus died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later), we also have to answer the call of the gospel, too. This call of the gospel is… God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Sanctification by the Spirit is Romans 8:13. Sanctification of the Spirit is putting away sin, doing good works, and living holy lives by God doing the good work through us (Philippians 2:13). For salvation is a person named Jesus Christ and we need to abide in Him in order to have life (1 John 5:12). This life will lead to a life of good fruit and not evil fruit. For a tree is known by it’s fruit. For John the Baptist said, “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10). Jesus says cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). So not having good fruit after being saved by God’s grace is just as equally detrimental at the Lord’s judgment.

This is the problem I have with the tract. While it is true that the tract correctly condemns a person for Works Alone Salvationism without God’s grace, it does not speak to how we need to be fruitful after we are saved by God’s grace as a part of God’s plan of salvation. That means Christians can be saved despite them justifying sin and or serving themselves alone instead of the Lord. The tract implies that a Christian can remain a lazy sinner their whole lives and still be saved by God’s grace.

 

[zoidar]

The thing is, based on what’s in the text, he wasn’t really sorry. He was sorry for his circumstances, though. And he thought being a servant of his father was better than being in his current position.

That's true. The question is what the point of the story is.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You yourself have testified that one can willfully and knowingly commit (venial) sins and all is well with God. So, it appears that you are a hypocrite.

In recent years, I do not use the term “venial sins” to refer to sins that do not lead to spiritual death because the term “venial sins” is associated with the Catholic Church (of which I do not agree with).

As for a person willfully committing sins that do not lead unto spiritual death:
Well, I believe Christians should strive to obey God in everything they do, but I realize that we may not always be perfect in our growing sanctifying walk with the Lord. This is why we do not have to be perfect in order to be saved. For example: Yes, I do believe that a Christian can go over the speed limit and not be condemned by God because this is not a sin that is condemned in His Word, and it is not always a violation of a lack of love towards your neighbor. Now, can it be? Yes. Speeding in an area where kids are playing would obviously be a serious lack of love towards human life. If a believer were to speed around kids without a care, I would say they are not saved and they need to get their heart right with God. But if they are not putting anyone’s life in danger by going a few miles over the limit, I am not sure why God would condemn them for such a thing.

As for your not so loving words that say that I am a hypocrite:
Well, first, let me say: May the Lord bless you and may His good love shine upon you today and forever more. Second, it’s not hypocritical or a contradiction to say that a Christian can willfully commit sins that do not lead to death and yet at the same time they may realize that they need to also strive to overcome such sins. For even those in the OSAS camp and or the Non-OSAS sin and still be saved camp believe that while committing sins like lusting, lying, hating, etc. may not condemn them, they also will admit that they as believers should strive to overcome such sins. For do you believe that a Christian can sin and still be saved? Do you not encourage others to overcome certain sins?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's true. The question is what the point of the story is.

I disagree. I believe the prodigal son was genuinely sorry over his sins. If this was not the case, then how can he be forgiven by his father and be rewarded by him? Why would the father say his son was alive AGAIN if he was not sincere in his seeking forgiveness? Such a statement makes no sense.

 

[zoidar]

I disagree. I believe the prodigal son was genuinely sorry over his sins. If this was not the case, then how can he be forgiven by his father and be rewarded by him? Why would the father say his son was alive AGAIN if he was not sincere in his seeking forgiveness? Such a statement makes no sense.

Hm, at least he was aware he had sinned against his father in heaven. He recogonizes he isn't worthy to be received by his father. The reason he wanted to return home though, was because his life had turned out miserable. I think you are right that the story is about true repentance.

I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.”’
— Luke 15:18-19

 

[Hammster]

That's true. The question is what the point of the story is.

The point of the story is God’s graciousness towards His children, who don’t deserve it. Both sons sinned against the father. It never affected their sonship.

 

[Hammster]

I disagree. I believe the prodigal son was genuinely sorry over his sins. If this was not the case, then how can he be forgiven by his father and be rewarded by him? Why would the father say his son was alive AGAIN if he was not sincere in his seeking forgiveness? Such a statement makes no sense.

Easy. He’s a son. That’s what you never have understood.

 

[zoidar]

...Both sons sinned against the father. It never affected their sonship.

I doubt it, since the son was dead in his father's eyes. I would like you being right though, since that is ensuring our salvation.

 

[Hammster]

I doubt it, since the son was dead in his father's eyes. I would like you being right though, since that is ensuring our salvation.

So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
— Luke 15:20

His father was looking. And he didn’t wait for his son’s apology.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the story is a parallel of our spiritual Father knowing all things.
The Parable also expresses the same truth in James 5:19-20, as well (as I mentioned before). For the son was said to be DEAD and he is now alive AGAIN. These words are speaking in spiritual terms. He was dead spiritually when he lived it up with prostitutes and he became alive AGAIN after he came back home to the father and was seeking forgiveness with him.

 

[Hammster]

I think the story is a parallel of our spiritual Father knowing all things.
The Parable also expresses the same truth in James 5:19-20, as well (as I mentioned before). For the son was said to be DEAD and he is now alive AGAIN. These words are speaking in spiritual terms. He was dead spiritually when he lived it up with prostitutes and he became alive AGAIN after he came back home to the father and was seeking forgiveness with him.

And yet he never ceases being a son. You just can’t make the argument from the text. Now, you can eisegesis the heck out of it and read your theology into it. But you can’t draw out of it what’s not there.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is salvation found in our subjective power to believe, or is salvation found in the objective work of Christ?



I didn't say that it did. I believe that Jesus Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead is what saves; and this is given to us as pure gift, as grace, which God appropriates to us through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

Both. The Scripture says that the work of God is that we believe on Him whom God has sent. And at the same time it says that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God, not of works that any should boast, but we are His workmanship created for good works in Christ.

Believing the Gospel is the act of putting our full trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, and as a result we are filled with the Holy Spirit Who causes us to be born again so that we can produce the fruits of righteousness.

When we come up before God in the Judgment, we come as sinners in ourselves, but our sin is not held against us, but against Christ, and we are declared acquitted. But I want to make sure that this applies only to those who have committed their lives in trust to Jesus and who can say with confidence: "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that Day."

 

[Aussie Pete]

We keep the commandments for the same reason my kids do what I say. It makes things better for them. They certainly don’t do it so that they can stay my children. That would be a horrible way to parent. It seems that some are okay with that, though.

Those who have come to know God have no problem accepting His will. I used to fear God's will. I was certain that it would be bad, because I was an unworthy sinner. I'm still an unworthy sinner, but now I know that God loves me anyway, I fear NOT having God's will! My own ideas and ways have only brought trouble on me. God's ways are always good and a blessing, even if it is not obvious sometimes.