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Featured Does a Human Being have a body?

Discussion in 'Debates on Abortion' started by Douglas Hendrickson, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not invisible if you put it under a microscope.
    Did I need to say "invisible to the naked eye" to make it so you could understand it?

    They use dyes, and colorations of images afterwards, to make their pictures look pretty. To see it NOT DIRECTLY, because it is not directly visible. Nothing to be seen without a microscope, no color. Not even black or grey.
     
  2. Stormy

    Stormy Senior Contributor

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    I am at a disadvantage debating with you since you consider human life the same as a rat or a concrete structure.

    Really..
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yes, it is difficult when someone does not consider Yahweh Sovereign, and His Word as the Standard as Yahweh PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDS all things.
    Debating topics cannot lead to Yahweh's Truth, when Yahweh is not Sovereign,
    so not only is that a major disadvantage, it cannot help unless they agree to turn to Yahweh for Yahweh's understanding, instead of anything else opposed to Yahweh.
     
  4. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I certainly did not say that.
    Do not bear false witness.

    Some principles that apply to the building of a house apply to the building of a human person.
    Do you not agree that gestation is the building of a human being, and that it occurs in a womb?
    And like in the case of the house, there is no building (body) until it is built.

    You refer to "human life," well although it is not the same as what you say I say it is the same as, it is the same sort of thing that is found in a human cancer. Human life. Alive human cells.
     
  5. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you realize how misleading it is to use a a vague phrase like "life has begun"?

    It works for the "pro-life" person as a "persuasive argument" because it is true that there is "life" in the womb. There are alive human cells. So of course whatever one takes the "life has begun" to mean, it must be true. And it will be in the next breath taken to mean "human being," without any real warrant for such an extension.

    Technically, it is no beginning of life, since any life found there came entirely from the sperm and egg that united.
    In that we can point back to there as, "where we all come from," it is the beginning of each of us as an actual person. But just like a house we do not exist as human beings until there is at least some human being body. We must be constructed in the womb.

    Furthermore, there are certain things like self-maintenance that there must be capability for in order for there to be an actual human being, animal member of the species.
     
  6. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Funny funny funny.
    Try reading about animals, try a biology book. Mammals.

    You think real animals do not require real bodies of flesh and blood?
    Come on.
    You I think referred to pictures of the zygote.
    Try some pictures of animals, to get an idea of what they might be like. What their bodies look like.
     
  7. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    Douglas, I wish you could see just how absurd your ideas are. At conception we have a new, unique, individual. All organisms begin their existence as one cell. We only exist as that one cell for a very short period of time.

    But at no point during our development, which lasts about 25 years are we not a human being.

    You will need to put out your own book with your own definitions since everything you say contradicts known science.
     
  8. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    With a seed you have no tree.
    That is, a seed is not a tree.
    And even a just sprouted seed is not a tree.
    (To draw the parallel, a zygote is not a human being made.)

    Glad you point out that more than a body is required.
    NOT LESS.
     
  9. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Broken record with no positive contribution.
     
  10. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well that is one possible definition of "body," I suppose.
    So even something with the barest amount of physicality (a speck of dust in the physical universe) is "a body." A speck of dust, or one cell bearing human genetics.
    Well in that sense yes, a minuscule invisible nothing could be considered a body, but it is nothing like an actual human being animal body.
     
  11. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Not at all comparable to a speck of dust.

    A speck of dust is inanimate, dead, and will not grow into anything. A human from the time it is one cell is alive, and already set as to the person. It can hardly grow into a cow, or a puppy. It's a human.

    Not really interested in arguing about this though. I've yet to see such arguing accomplish anything productive.

    The real issue is what is a human person, and does such a person have intrinsic value as a person. I would say each person is of inestimable worth, so from the moment it begins, it is valuable.

    If you consider a human of no more intrinsic worth than a jellyfish or a chimpanzee, then it is easy to devalue the stages it passes through.

    Peace to you.
     
  12. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's the type of "physicality" I was pointing to.
    MINIMAL TO THE POINT OF BEING INVISIBLE.

    Sure there is life in the case of the zygote. The life of one cell.
    One cell does not even one organ make, let alone one organism.

    Is it really so hard to see that if a "human being" can be as little as one living cell, then what a human being is is very minimal indeed.
    FAR LESS IN SUBSTANCE THAN ANY ACTUAL RAT.
    Uttermost degradation to the point of virtually nothing.
     
  13. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Seems you consider a human being to be far less than a jellyfish or a chimpanzee, for what possible value, what intrinsic worth, could we ever find in a single alive cell. Itself that is.
    Sure it has potential that is great, it may indeed multiply and become something much more, but in itself, as what it actually is, is virtually nothing, certainly far less than a jellyfish.

    It is true that a human person does have intrinsic value, is of inestimable worth. But certainly none of that is found in the zygote. Not in any zygote, ever.
    WHICH ITSELF PROVES THE ZYGOTE COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE A HUMAN PERSON.
     
  14. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I don't know where you get the idea from my post that I value a person less than a jellyfish.

    It may "prove" it to you, but that is only your own reasoning.

    A person is a person, and has the full dignity of humanity from the moment life begins, because it is human life, though not fully developed. It is not worth less than a rat, or what have you - at least not in the eyes of anyone who understands human dignity and worth.

    I thought I was reading the posts of an atheist, as I was on my phone earlier. You are Christian? God values human life, from the womb. I'm surprised to hear another Christian dispute that.

    John the Baptist leapt in the womb, when he was near to Christ, also in the womb. Already they were both persons ... and much beloved by God. The Psalms make mention of being known while in the womb. And so on.

    Again, I'm not looking to argue. But it is God's values we should place on life. And I don't see another way of looking at it.

    Peace to you.
     
  15. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    EXACTLY.
    God values human life, from the womb.
    "From" meaning after.
    Not before or even in it.

    Making sense George!
     
  16. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    When a sperm fertilises an egg, that is when human life begins. The process of creating a new human being has begun.
     
  17. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is a very true statement - "The process of creating a new human being has begun."
    HOPEFULLY YOU ACTUALLY MEAN THAT STATEMENT.

    Gestation is that process, to create, to bring into being. Keep in mind that the start is not the end of the process, is not the human life already created.

    On the other hand, your, "that is when human life begins," is spurious. And muddies the water. Yes, the life there is human, but it is the same life there was in the sperm, and in the egg.
    NO NEW LIFE, and no new human life.
     
  18. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yet the Psalmist says;

    For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
    I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.
    15 My frame was not hidden from you
    when I was made in the secret place,
    when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
    16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book
    before one of them came to be. Psalm 139:13-16

    God created us and saw us before we were even born.

    When Rebekah was pregnant, the babies "jostled within her" and the Lord told her that she was expecting twins, Genesis 25:22.
    When Elizabeth met Mary the baby in her womb "leapt for joy", Luke 1:41.

    Babies can move around, kick etc from around 6 months, if not sooner. There is no evidence that God ignores all this and only values a baby when it is born, quite the opposite.
    And what if a baby is premature? Are you saying that God values a 30 week old baby that has been born, and sees it as a real person; but a 30 week old baby that is still in the womb is a non-entity?
     
  19. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh yah? You are suggesting there is more God paying attention to what is in a womb than to babes AND BEYOND in the "born" side of things? I doubt it.

    Other than the couple of things you reference here, is there really much more even peripheral Biblical reference to womb things? I doubt it.
     
  20. Open Heart

    Open Heart Messianic Jewish Catholic

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    A body is simply whatever physical form encases the individual of a species. That would include a zygote. A human being is any individual that has human chromosomes, including any of the normal accidental deviations, such as XXY.

    A newborn baby cannot survive by itself. It is completely dependent upon its parents. It even breastfeeds for nutrition, so in a way it is STILL attached to the mother's body. Yet even those in favor of abortion would say it is human.

    This is truly one of those situations where there is a slippery slope. I would agree that a zygote looks nothing like a newborn, but a newborn looks nothing like a 30 year old, and a 30 year old looks nothing like an 80 year old. If you state, "Well, you have to have arms and legs," then what about those born without? If you say, "Well, it must have a beating heart," then what about those whose hearts have stopped but still have working brains?

    The truth is, as soon as that being, however simple, as all its chromosomes, it has the potential to have a full life as a human being. Not so with an egg or a sperm.
     
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