Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains?

[Herman Hedning]

excuse me, I never said the majority of water in noahs flood was from hydroplate, but in my last post I mentioned a water canopy as the primary source of water. What few degrees the ocean temps raised would be of no consequences.

thanks for the reply

Yes, the water canopy is what I replied to. A few degrees? Are you kidding?

Pro primo: To keep enough water for the Noachic flood suspended in the atmosphere would increase the atmospheric pressure at sea level to, say, 600 atm. No life as we know it could survive that.

Pro secundo: Having that amount of water fall to the ground in a short while (40 days, right?) would through well known processes increase the temperature at ground level to more than 800°C (1500°F). No life could survive that.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[AV1611VET]

No life could survive that.

Not to sound too ignorant here, but wasn't that the point of the Flood?

 

[AkiraYamato]

Well, our "Shinto" sent a global flood, and what you called "impossible" happened.

Your Shinto? You should read into that...lol

 

[TLK Valentine]

Not to sound too ignorant here, but wasn't that the point of the Flood?

To roast the people and animals on the Ark to a crisp? You tell me.

 

[AkiraYamato]

Not to sound too ignorant here, but wasn't that the point of the Flood?

Well, we japanese people survived it aparantly...and we were not on Noahs cruise.

 

[Lucy Stulz]

What about them?

I assume they would accept that list; wouldn't you?

How does that old saying go? It takes one to know one?

I wouldn't necessarily say they wouldaccept the list. Real scientists can be a harsh group toward each other.

A geologist may not really care what a biologist thinks about rocks.

 

[Lucy Stulz]

Look at it this way. All it takes is one piece of evidence for a global flood to trump all the evidence against it.

Got one?

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes, the water canopy is what I replied to. A few degrees? Are you kidding?

Pro primo: To keep enough water for the Noachic flood suspended in the atmosphere would increase the atmospheric pressure at sea level to, say, 600 atm. No life as we know it could survive that.

Pro secundo: Having that amount of water fall to the ground in a short while (40 days, right?) would through well known processes increase the temperature at ground level to more than 800°C (1500°F). No life could survive that.

Thanks for the reply.

okay I was like, this guy has a point here.....then I read your second statement. Are you kidding?

water raining down on the earth will increase ground level temps to over 1500°F?

So, it magically recieves heat from the friction of the fall?

Water in a water canopy would be relatively cold, I would think.

If it fell it certainly would not be 1500 degrees,


mmmmaaaaayyyyybbbeee

60-70 tops.

but I am open to any documentation you may have,

please proceed...

 

[createdtoworship]

If ocean temperatures rise just a few degree most of its life would die because lack of oxygen. Warmer water can hold less oxygen. The gigantic input of organic matter would lead to an algae bloom and further destruction of the marine ecosystem. The saline and temperature circulations would break and a mass extinction would start, bigger than the permian extinction. In other words: impossible

you will have to excuse my poor grammer, and spelling in this post. It's early, and I have not had coffee.


you are correct that warmer water has less DO (dissolved oxygen), however the presence of oxygen depleting organisms are the main culprit in killing off oceanic life, not a few degrees temp rise.

That is quite a stretch (that 2-3 degrees would deplete the oceans of oxygen).

source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_kill

so algae/bacteria is the problem you are probably referring to, not a few degrees of temperature rise.

the average temperature of the ocean is 39 degrees
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2007/LilyLi.shtml

for algae to bloom you need a minimum of 60 degrees - 80 degrees span

so thats a 20 degree window that we could add warmer water to the oceans and not have algae bloom.

thirdly, distilled water coming from the atmosphere will dilute global oceanic TDS and salinity content, so if the temperatures will rise because of raining water, but he solubility of the water to dissolve oxygen will increase as the salinity has decreased and be compensated. (salt makes water less able to dissolve oxygen).

conclusion:

for fill kill to happen a few things must occur:

water must raise temperature a minimum of 21 degrees globally.

algae/bacteria must grow and engulf existing oxygen content, and grow even more to engulf oxygen content of the increased oxygen absorbed by pure rain water, obviously being penetrated with oxygen for miles of free fall through oxygen on the way down.

then the fish must migrate toward the warm areas where the water temps have increased, algae has had weeks to grow and produce, and suffocate.

Your theory is a valid theory,

it's just lacking the factual evidence of support.

You need to prove that billions of gallons of cold space water will increase ocean water from 39 degrees to 60 or more degrees,

I am being generus here,

the other thing algae and plant life needs is phosphates, again this would be diluted with oxygen enhanced rain water of a distilled sort.

So it is really a super enriched environment for growth and renewal, not death.

 

[AV1611VET]

Your Shinto?

Yes.

You should read into that...lol

I did.

The word Shinto ("Way of the Gods")...

SOURCE

The "way of our God" was to do what He did, when He did it, why He did it, how He did it, where He did it, how long it took Him to do it, what order He did it in, and who the eyewitnesses were, as outlined in Genesis 6 - 9.

 

[AV1611VET]

To roast the people and animals on the Ark to a crisp?

So Noah build his own coffin, in your opinion?

You tell me.

How about you tell me, literary professor? what does the Bible say?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

okay I was like, this guy has a point here.....then I read your second statement. Are you kidding?

water raining down on the earth will increase ground level temps to over 1500°F?

So, it magically recieves heat from the friction of the fall?

Water in a water canopy would be relatively cold, I would think.

If it fell it certainly would not be 1500 degrees,


mmmmaaaaayyyyybbbeee

60-70 tops.

but I am open to any documentation you may have,

please proceed...

I assume it is something to do with the water vapour condensing into water droplets to become rain and releasing heat when doing so. It's one the main ways heat is transferred back into the atmosphere from solar heating of oceans. Anyway, if enough water vapour condensed to produce enough rain for a biblical flood over 40 days, the heat released would be quite significant. No idea if it would be 800 degrees worth, but if you've got an atmospheric pressure high enough to allow that amount of water vapour in the atmosphere, I'd say there was a good chance everything would be cooked.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, we japanese people survived it aparantly...and we were not on Noahs cruise.

That's an interesting feat, since the Japanese are the descendants of Ham, Noah's son.

 

[AkiraYamato]

That's an interesting feat, since the Japanese are the descendants of Ham, Noah's son.

ha ha ha sorry but no.

 

[AV1611VET]

I wouldn't necessarily say they wouldaccept the list. Real scientists can be a harsh group toward each other.

A geologist may not really care what a biologist thinks about rocks.

Let's simplify this discussion, Lucy.

Here's grady's list again:

Here is a list of global floodists, who accept also a literal creation:


Some modern scientists who have accepted the biblical account of creation and the flood*:

Dr. William Arion, Biochemistry, Chemistry
Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
Dr. Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
Dr. David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Dr. Rob Carter, Marine Biology
Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Dr. Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
Timothy C. Coppess, M.S., Environmental Scientist
Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr. Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
Dr. Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr. Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Dr. Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
Dr. Dudley Eirich, Molecular Biologist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Dr. Andrew J. Fabich, Microbiology
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
Dr. Kenneth W. Funk, Organic Chemistry
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Dr. Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
Dr. Robin Greer, Chemist, History
Dr. Stephen Grocott, Chemist
Dr. Vicki Hagerman, DMV
Dr. Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
Dr. Barry Harker, Philosopher
Dr. Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
Dr. Mark Harwood, Engineering (satellite specialist)
Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
Dr. Harold R. Henry, Engineer
Dr. Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
Dr. Joseph Henson, Entomologist
Dr. Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
Dr. Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
Dr. Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
George T. Javor, Biochemistry
Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
Dr. Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
Dr. Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
Dr. William F. Kane, (Civil) Geotechnical Engineering
Dr. Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
Dr. Dean Kenyon, Biologist
Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
Dr. John W. Klotz, Biologist
Dr. Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
Dr. Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
Dr. Johan Kruger, Zoology
Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
Dr. John G. Leslie, Ph.D., Biochemist, Physician, Archaeologist
Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
Dr. Alan Love, Chemist
Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist
Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
Dr. Ronald C. Marks, Associate Professor of Chemistry
Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
Dr. John McEwan, Chemist
Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
Dr. Albert Mills, Animal Embryologist/Reproductive Physiologist
Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
Dr. Elizabeth Mitchell, Physician
Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Physician
Dr. John N. Moore, Science Educator
Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918–2006), founder of the Institute for Creation Research.
Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
Dr. Len Morris, Physiologist
Dr. Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
Dr. Terry Mortenson, History of Geology
Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
Dr. David Oderberg, Philosopher
Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
Dr. John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
Dr. Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
Dr. Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
Dr. David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
Prof. Richard Porter
Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
Dr. A.S. Reece, M.D.
Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
Dr. Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
Dr. David Rosevear, Chemist
Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
Dr. Kenneth Royal, Psychometrics
Dr. Ron Samec, Professional Astronomer
Dr. Joachim Scheven, Palaeontologist
Dr. Ian Scott, Educator
Dr. Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
Dr. Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
Dr. Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
Dr. Roger Simpson, Engineer
Dr. Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
Dr. E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
George S. Smith, M.S., Chemistry
Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
Dr. Charles Taylor, Linguistics
Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
Dr. Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
Dr. Joachim Vetter, Biologist
Dr. Stephen J. Vinay III, Chemical Engineering
Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (1892–1979) Surgeon
Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
Dr. Keith Wanser, Physicist
Dr. Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (1915–1995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
Dr. Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
Dr. Gordon Wilson, Environmental Science and Public Policy
Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
Dr. Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology

Do you see anyone on that list that you, personally, wouldn't call a scientist?

 

[AV1611VET]

ha ha ha sorry but no.

Let me get this straight.

You didn't know anyone still believes Noah's flood was global.

You aren't familiar with Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego in the burning, fiery furnace.

Yet when I say the Japanese came from Ham, you suddenly become knowledgeable on the subject?

I'm getting the feeling you're just here to ... well ... do what the others here do -- vent & ridicule us.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd hate to think the Shinto hate us as well.

 

[createdtoworship]

I assume it is something to do with the water vapour condensing into water droplets to become rain and releasing heat when doing so. It's one the main ways heat is transferred back into the atmosphere from solar heating of oceans. Anyway, if enough water vapour condensed to produce enough rain for a biblical flood over 40 days, the heat released would be quite significant. No idea if it would be 800 degrees worth, but if you've got an atmospheric pressure high enough to allow that amount of water vapour in the atmosphere, I'd say there was a good chance everything would be cooked.

okay I have no idea what you are saying,

not that you are wrong.

I don't see how water falling from the atmosphere would be 1500 degree, let alone 800 degrees.

I could be missing something, but the only thing I could find that closely resembles your view is the green house affect because of the water canopy. While all life would thrive under a subtropical climate, some oceanic life would be sacrificed as waters would become warmer. I have a theory that compensates for this. It is still in the works and is not yet complete but I will give you what I have:

it's basically a much thicker water canopy than previously believed by creationists.

This canopy would actually be able to repel radiation from the sun off the top of the canopy, reducing green house affect on the globe.

I first came to this conclusion reading this article:

feel free to check it out
https://www.icr.org/i/pdf/research/Canopy.pdf

 

[Lucy Stulz]

here is paper by dr. Walt brown mentioning a few of these "vast blanket sedimentary rocks," not "one" deposit, but so many of them are thousands of miles long, that views have originated about a global sized sea (paleozic sea) they call it.

first off the N American continent had a number of "epieric" seas transgress across it and cut it up etc.

Parts of the Ordovician had most of the area between the Appalachians and what is now the Rockies under water. Later in the Carboniferous an inland sea retreated and then came back later on.

Interesting thing about stuff like this is a feature called a "transgressive sequence", where the rocks show you the slow march of the water up onto the continent and a "regressive sequence" showing the trip back out. When you find a couple of these in one area you realize that this has happened a number of times.

To look at a few large extent formations and assume it is a single massive flood means you will likely have to explain another one at a DIFFERENT time horizon in the rock too. So how many Noachian floods do we have to account for?

Further some of these formations contain huge thick layers of SHALE, some "black shale" which means they formed in low energy environments over a long period of time.

Take some clay sometime and slurry it up in taaaaalll glass of water and look at how long it takes to settle out. The drive through a roadcut with 100' thick shale and think about it for a bit.

 

[Lucy Stulz]

Let's simplify this discussion, Lucy.

Here's grady's list again:

Do you see anyone on that list that you, personally, wouldn't call a scientist?

Note I didn't say they weren't scientists.

I answered your question ast whether that would change a scientist's attitude toward a claim.

Scientists disagree with each other all the time.

And when a biologist suggests that a rock layer may be formed by a very non standard geologic process, the geologist will likely correct them.

When a physicist tells a biologist all about how evolution is a crock, the biologist may very well correct them.

Just being a "scientist" doesn't make one infallible on all topics.

Even scientists within the same discipline argue with each other! Only they sometimes aren't as nice to each other as people are on this thread.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes, the water canopy is what I replied to. A few degrees? Are you kidding?

Pro primo: To keep enough water for the Noachic flood suspended in the atmosphere would increase the atmospheric pressure at sea level to, say, 600 atm. No life as we know it could survive that.

Pro secundo: Having that amount of water fall to the ground in a short while (40 days, right?) would through well known processes increase the temperature at ground level to more than 800°C (1500°F). No life could survive that.

Thanks for the reply.

okay, I found your arguments online, give me some time to read through them. It appears that the high heat of a water canopy is one reason leading to the acceptance of a hydroplate theory. However, I believe both. A thick water canopy and a minor hydroplate burst. Rather than a major hydroplate burst which would kill oceanic life. But hold on, let me gather info. I will get back in a moment-