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Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains?

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Loudmouth

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Regarding the flood, we haven't yet constructed a reasonable model of how the flood might have occurred (imo of course), although the biblical story gives many hints.

Getting back to the topic at hand, no one has explained how a flood produces hundreds of feet of solid, fossil bearing limestone at the top of mountains.

For example, the earth had not received 'rain' until the flood, but instead was apparently watered by (nightly?) dewfall. If this also means that there was no significant groundwater in the earth in the form of the large aquifers present today then the forty days of rain might have had a significant effect and may even have began the flooding process.

Consider a steady rainfall, perhaps started by one or several volcanic eruptions (dirt, previously absent, in the heavy moist air causing widespread rainfall) of a vigorous one inch per hour. This would soak the earth, filling the previously dry ground, with 80 verticle feet of water over the entire land, minus runoff at the seashores. Scientists estimate that the land sank as much as one foot under the weight of three feet of glacial ice, in some areas. Applying the same calculation the rainfall would cause the continents to sink twenty five or so feet, enough to begin massive flooding from the sea in lowland areas. Of course the additional weight would further sink the land and exacerbate the flooding,

On small problem. It doesn't matter if the water is in the atmosphere or on top of the land. It is still pushing down on the Earth with equal force. Having the rain precipitate does not change the pressure on the land. If it did rain the water would flow downhill and gather in the lowest regions causing the lowest regions to be pushed downwards and the dry land to be pushed upwards.

A
lso of profound interest is the mechanism for the abatement of these waters, now encompassing the entire globe, the wind. A strong and steady wind can move much water, and the usual limiting factors, such as a containment feature, would be absent from the flood scene allowing plenty of room for the windblown water to move freely away from the land. As the floodwaters returns to the sea the weight presses down on the seafloor causing magma to flow back under the continents and raising them.

We have wind now, and no global flooding.

Also of interest is the size and scope of the changes needed to complete the flood as recorded in the bible.

What is of interest is the massive amounts of evidence that contradict a recent global flood such as dendrochronology, lake varves, and annual ice layers.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Getting back to the topic at hand, no one has explained how a flood produces hundreds of feet of solid, fossil bearing limestone at the top of mountains.

That's easy. It doesn't.


One small problem. It doesn't matter if the water is in the atmosphere or on top of the land. It is still pushing down on the Earth with equal force. Having the rain precipitate does not change the pressure on the land.

This might be true if only the water directly above fell on the earth below. This was not the case then nor is it now when it rains hard.

If it did rain the water would flow downhill and gather in the lowest regions causing the lowest regions to be pushed downwards and the dry land to be pushed upwards.

True if the rains were only local. The flood rains would have affected whole continents. If the magma can't form a bulge surrounding the pressure it must push laterally, toward the edge of the landmass where it would raise the thinner seafloor causing seawater to flood the land.


We have wind now, and no global flooding.

The wind caused the flood to recede, it didn't cause the flood.

What is of interest is the massive amounts of evidence that contradict a recent global flood such as dendrochronology, lake varves, and annual ice layers.

True, this is interesting.
 
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Joshua0

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Joshua0

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Based on what evidence?
Contraire monsieur, it is YOU that needs to provide the evidence. I am not here to provide you with "evidence". We are here to stop you from misrepresenting Creationists beliefs. (IE catastrophic plate tectonics) Just as I am sure you do not appreciate it when Creationists misrepresent Evolution. So far you have provided zip, zero, zilch in the way of "evidence" to show that water is not essential in plate Technics. Actually truth be told. When the evolutionists adopted the Creationists plate tectonics theory as their very own, they really did not modify it that much.
 
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Loudmouth

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We are told that: "Water plays an important role in mantle convection." Bottom line: No water, no plate tectonics. The role of liquid water in maintaining plate tectonics and the regulation of su Why would you even try to suggest that water does not play a role in plate tectonics?

Water does play a role, but global flooding does not. It is the water in the subducted ocean sediments that can drive different convection currents. It has nothing to do with flooding, and it is occuring right now.
 
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Loudmouth

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Contraire monsieur, it is YOU that needs to provide the evidence.

I do not need to provide evidence for your claims. You do.

I am not here to provide you with "evidence".

So you are just going to keep making bald assertions with no evidence to back them up?

We are here to stop you from misrepresenting Creationists beliefs. (IE catastrophic plate tectonics) . . .

Where have I misrepresented it? Kurt Wise is a young earth creationist. You are aware of this, are you not?
 
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Split Rock

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The global flood took place 64 million years ago and there is plenty of evidence that the world at that time was destoryed. There was no global flood in the mid 1800's so of course your not going to find any evidence from that time period. You got to know when to look.

I think most creationists here would disagree about the flood occurring 67 mya. In any case, I am talking about the evidence in the geological column, so your point about looking in the 1800s is a non sequiter.
 
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Split Rock

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Contraire monsieur, it is YOU that needs to provide the evidence. I am not here to provide you with "evidence". We are here to stop you from misrepresenting Creationists beliefs. (IE catastrophic plate tectonics) Just as I am sure you do not appreciate it when Creationists misrepresent Evolution. So far you have provided zip, zero, zilch in the way of "evidence" to show that water is not essential in plate Technics. Actually truth be told. When the evolutionists adopted the Creationists plate tectonics theory as their very own, they really did not modify it that much.

"Evolutionists" (whatever that means) did not adopt anything from creationists. Plate tectonics arose from Continental Drift theory, as its primary mechanism.
 
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createdtoworship

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"Evolutionists" (whatever that means) did not adopt anything from creationists. Plate tectonics arose from Continental Drift theory, as its primary mechanism.

actually He's right, Antonio Snyder 1859 published the first works regarding drift paterns, although His theory was much sped up (continental sprint), which later developed into (continental drift). His works revolved around a global flood. I am not sure He was a creationist, but I would be very very suprised if He wasn't. Funny thing, is you would never know that He actually invented the theory. Creationists and Global flood advocates never get the credit they deserve.

update:

I checked out more of Snyders book and it was french, and it was a creationist book for sure:

more info about it here

http://creationwiki.org/Continental_drift
 
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createdtoworship

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What I've read is that the earth's crust is pretty flexible. The Amazon river basin sinks and rebounds three inches each year under the weight of 30 to 40 feet of floodwater from seasonal rains.

I also read that the glaciers caused the earth to sink many meters in some areas, causing unusually high tides that flowed inland for many miles, and is still rebounding in many areas.



Main article: Isostatic rebound; from Wikipedia

This rise of a part of the crust is due to an isostatic adjustment. A large mass, such as an ice sheet/glacier, depresses the crust of the Earth and displaces the mantle below. The depression is about a third the thickness of the ice sheet. After the glacier melts the mantle begins to flow back to its original position pushing the crust back to its original position. This post-glacial rebound, which lags melting of the ice sheet/glacier, is currently occurring in measurable amounts in Scandinavia and the Great Lakes region of North America

Some believe this widespread rebounding is responsible for small deep earthquakes in areas far from fault zones.

Regarding the flood, we haven't yet constructed a reasonable model of how the flood might have occurred (imo of course), although the biblical story gives many hints. For example, the earth had not received 'rain' until the flood, but instead was apparently watered by (nightly?) dewfall. If this also means that there was no significant groundwater in the earth in the form of the large aquifers present today then the forty days of rain might have had a significant effect and may even have began the flooding process.

Consider a steady rainfall, perhaps started by one or several volcanic eruptions (dirt, previously absent, in the heavy moist air causing widespread rainfall) of a vigorous one inch per hour. This would soak the earth, filling the previously dry ground, with 80 verticle feet of water over the entire land, minus runoff at the seashores. Scientists estimate that the land sank as much as one foot under the weight of three feet of glacial ice, in some areas. Applying the same calculation the rainfall would cause the continents to sink twenty five or so feet, enough to begin massive flooding from the sea in lowland areas. Of course the additional weight would further sink the land and exacerbate the flooding,

It is also interesting to note that the earth's crust is solid rock, floating on molten rock, and barely floating at that. It doesn't take much additional weight to push it down. Of course the downward pressure will displace the liguid magma outward having the further effect of raising the seabeds, perhaps providing the needed water to cover the highest peaks, which may have now sunk considerably under the enormous weight of the incoming waters.

Also of profound interest is the mechanism for the abatement of these waters, now encompassing the entire globe, the wind. A strong and steady wind can move much water, and the usual limiting factors, such as a containment feature, would be absent from the flood scene allowing plenty of room for the windblown water to move freely away from the land. As the floodwaters returns to the sea the weight presses down on the seafloor causing magma to flow back under the continents and raising them.

Also of interest is the size and scope of the changes needed to complete the flood as recorded in the bible. If you had a globe of twelve inches in diameter representing the earth you would need to deform it about the thickness of two or three sheets of paper to cause global flooding. Such a deformity would not be apparent to the naked eye. Additionally, although mountains look very tall and imposing they are little more than the height of grains of sand on this twelve inch globe.

Or, imagine a teeter-totter representing the dry land and the seafloor. An nearly imperceptible movement of the board is all that is needed to accomplish the movement of water in either direction.

We are so accustomed to thinking of cataclysmic movement of land and water when thinking about the flood that we ignore the information given in scripture. The most notable being the speed of the income floodwater from the sea, which I calculate at 1.6 inches rise per minute based on the duration of 150 days and displacement of 29,000 feet, the height of Mt. Everest.

This inflow is comparable to many incoming tides around the earth, hardly the gulleywashers imagined by most. Here's a video of one that gives a good idea of how fast Noah's flood came in from the sea:

Quand les touristes se font piéger Par la marée montante - YouTube


Notice the clarity of the water as it flows across the sand. At that speed there is no erosion, and as the flood waters flowed gently across many areas there would also be no or little erosion, especially healthy grasslands. It is where the flow of the waters are restricted or flow downhill that serious erosion takes place. A study of the earth's topography will easily reveal those areas.

Another mistake that is made is the assumption that because the flood presented massive amounts of water that massive amounts of erosion and deposition would occur. The reality is that massive amounts of water acted on finite or limited amount of deposition material, and that such erosion and deposition would occur with a much smaller (local?) flood. To demonstrate this for yourself place sand in the bottom of a bucket, then pour it out slowly. Notice that the sediments don't move until the last of the water flows out. It doesn't matter how large the bucket is, the results will be the same. Try the same experiment in your bathtub. Place some dirt or sand in the bottom then fill the tub. Notice that the sediment stops moving soon after the water starts to fill the tub. It doesn't matter how much water you put into the tub, the sediment will only move with the first water in and the last water that drains out.

Anyway that's my current working theory ( always subject to revision of course).

I will check out your post more when I have time, thanx. Sounds interesting.
 
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createdtoworship

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The methods used are legitimate measurements of the average age of the rocks within the sample. The problem is that you have a mixture of younger and older rocks which means that the sample can not be used to measure the age of eruption.

You are confusing two different things. The age of the rock and the age of the eruption. They are not necessarily the same age.

Let's say that I have a technique for measuring the age of humans. To test this technique I go into a nursery because I was told that there are newborns in the nursery and this will show me whether or not my technique can meausure the age of really young humans. So I go to the nursery, close the doors, and use the technique on all the humans in the nursery. The problem is that in addition to the newborns there are also nurses and doctors in the nursery, and I include them in the measurements. When I am done I have an average age of about 25 years old for the humans in the nursery. Does this mean that my technique failed?

well again, I haven't seen any type of dates you post. Either for the lava flow or as in your perspective "the eruption." Either one will suffice for me. (I understand that the lava is composed of existing material which would be older than said eruption). I was reffering to the eruption. When asking for the age of a child, you don't carbon date their skin. You look at the birth certificate.
 
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freezerman2000

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Grady, can you give us a better cause for the number of and diversity of life during the Cambrian epoch other than an explosion of life forms?

Sorry that you don't like Wiki..do you have a better source that is religion neutral?
 
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Joshua0

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Water does play a role, but global flooding does not.
The fact of the matter is, your ability to be able to understand what happened has no effect on history itself. I understand as a Evolutionists that you just make stuff up as you go along. As Creationists we do not live in a fantasy world like that. We are challenged with understanding what really happened and what God really did. Like I said, my objective is not really to help people understand Creationism. My objective is to keep people from misrepresenting Creationism and telling lies about it. If you want to know the truth, then pray and God will show you the truth. You do not need me for that. Better that you just deal direct with Him. People need to discover the truth for themselves. They can not really learn it from others.
 
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Joshua0

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Grady, can you give us a better cause for the number of and diversity of life during the Cambrian epoch other than an explosion of life forms?
The radiation in the Cambrain was due to the Great Oxygen Event that took place in the Pre Cambrian. They call this the oxygen catastrophe because there was a need for the earth to deal with the abundance of Oxygen. Geology had reached a saturation point and was no longer able to absorb the Oxygen. Evolutionists know that the driving force behind evolutionary change in the biodiversity of the species is due to environmental changes in the ecosystem. It is a sink or swim, adapt or go extinct situation.
 
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JoyfulExegesis

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For example, the earth had not received 'rain' until the flood, but instead was apparently watered by (nightly?) dewfall.

I grew up in a church where that "no rain before the flood" tradition prevailed. It always amazed me that despite often paying lip service to "Always considering the context!", few Bible readers noticed that the description cited above appeared in the introduction to the Eden pericope. And the Hebrew text is not referring to "the planet earth" or "the entire earth". It refers to the ERETZ, the "land". Which land? The region of Eden, where God planted a garden. The context is providing background on the region which would become a lush paradise, but originally was barren of plant life. (Why was it barren of "plants of the field" and "herbs of the field"? There was no one there to cultivate it. So God would change all that when he planted a garden there. I've wanted to someday study further those specific phrases in Hebrew. Were NO plants growing there? Or just NO CULTIVATED PLANTS USEFUL TO MAN? That would probably require a review of a lot of extra-Biblical Hebrew texts to resolve.)

As to "mists" or "dewfall", these are traditions based largely on the struggle of the KJV translators to understand the Hebrew word (which only appears in the OT here and in Job.) Modern scholarship leans heavily toward "streams", not "mists". And considering the description of four rivers, many have suggested a river delta, where a river divides into a great many "streams" and the water table is naturally and consistently high---providing ideal growing conditions, even without rain. And some have observed that the word translated "mists" may have referred to "the vapors of rain clouds" which produce the streams.

In any case, the tradition in some parts of Christendom which claims that rainfall had never been experienced prior to Noah's Flood has NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT. Indeed, the ONLY prooftext is Genesis 2:5,6! And that clearly refers to a PARTICULAR ERETZ ("land"), not the entire planet!
 
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JoyfulExegesis

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I understand as a Evolutionists that you just make stuff up as you go along.

Now THAT's funny!

(Dare I ask for your #1 Best Example of an evolutionists "just making stuff up as you go along"?)

Are you maintaining that it is not extremely common for our creationist brethren to make stuff up as you go along? (Need I provide examples?)


As Creationists we do not live in a fantasy world like that.

I grew up in a young earth creationist church. And I spent much of my life as a young earth creationist. Yes, I admit that fantasy worlds were extremely common among us. We promoted all sorts of traditions (i.e., fantasy worlds) which had NO BASIS in the Bible.

If you want to know the truth, then pray and God will show you the truth.

I'm certainly in favor of that. However, when you explore the CONTEXT of those promises in the scriptures, is it referring to ALL truths or particular kinds of truths? That is, is prayer the best way to determine ALL types of truth/knowledge? Or was Jesus talking about particular spiritual truths of the Gospel?

In other words, if I want to know the age of the earth, should I simply pray for the answer? Or should I look at the EVIDENCE within God's creation to see what answers God has provided? (After all, the Bible itself does NOT tell us the age of the earth.) Can I trust God to give me honest answers within his creation? Or do I have to worry that the Creator might be deceiving me by placing evidence in creation which contradicts what he says in the Bible? Did God write two books which often contradict each other? Or do they tell consistent stories?)

Of course, it takes little more than common sense to realize that simply "praying to God for truth" doesn't provide consistent answers. After all, even within my fundamentalist church of nothing but young earth creationists, the pastors, elders, and Sunday School teachers disagreed on various specifics---despite what were no doubt equally fervent and sincere prayers to God. Some thought that nobody ate meat prior to the flood. Some thought there was no rain until Adam sinned while others were certain that the first rainfall occurred with Noah's Flood.

Indeed, the vast range of beliefs about "truths" among equally sincere believers in Jesus Christ who share equal reverence for the authority of the Bible debunks any claim that the promise to pray for truth necessarily applies to ALL matters of truth/knowledge in any consistent way. Nevertheless, I still have young earth creationist friends who continue to hold to that belief----even while lamenting that ONLY THEY managed to come up with the "correct" truths!

In fact, one creationist friend told me that Ken Ham was "sadly deceived by Satan" because Ken Ham urges believers NOT to teach that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamic didn't apply until the fall. My friend KNOWS that the 2nd L.O.T. began with Adam's sin because (1) he prayed about it, and (2) God gave him the correct answer. And God only gives the ONE correct answer and never contradicts himself. Therefore, logic would demand that all other "answers" Christians may have received after praying about that question must have come from Satan or some other godless source. So I asked my friend, "But how do you know that YOU are not also deceived?" He answered: "I prayed about it and God told me that I'm right."

I guess that settles it! (By the way, I prayed about Joshua0 and was told not to believe anything he posts. How do I know that? I prayed about it just to double-check and indeed: I'm not deceived. So my truth checked out perfectly.)


You do not need me for that. Better that you just deal direct with Him. People need to discover the truth for themselves. They can not really learn it from others.

Yet the Bible says, "There is safety in many counselors." And it also warns that we can easily be self-deceived. And "the heart is desperately wicked above all things."

Indeed, if prayer solves all truth issues, why do we Christians in this forum have so many differing views not only on origins and related matters but on a wide range of theological and scientific topics? Are Joshua's claims about "discovering the truth" Biblical?....or are they simply cherished TRADITIONS?
 
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JoyfulExegesis

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I understand as a Evolutionists that you just make stuff up as you go along. As Creationists we do not live in a fantasy world like that.

A creationist by the name of Ken Ham built a CREATION MUSEUM which includes an exhibit explaining how a single pair of "horse kind" animals on the ark produced ALL HORSE KIND SPECIES seen today and in the past---all within a time period of just 200 years. Now THAT is what I call hyper-speed evolution! (However, somehow Ham manages to deny ---- to himself if not others --- that this "diversification process" is really just a high speed evolution. ) But Ham says with a straight face that that one original pair produced every "horse kind" species from Arabians to pygmy horses to zebras to donkeys to reindeers to antelopes to gazelles and more! Yes, to "baraminologists" like Ham, every animal that looks like a horse must surely be descended from one (pair, that is.) Apparently, common descent applies even among SOME creationists.

I wonder if Ken Ham prayed to make sure it was true, before he created that museum poster. Or was it simply a fantasy that Ham and other creationists made up? (After all, the Bible says nothing about the "horse kind" diversifying to many species in a few hundred years. Right, Ken?)
 
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AV1611VET

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As to "mists" or "dewfall", these are traditions based largely on the struggle of the KJV translators to understand the Hebrew word...
Really?

Seems like they weren't the only ones who struggled.

Genesis 2:6 [AV1599 Geneva] But a mist went up from the earth, and watered all the earth.

Genesis 2:6 [YLT] and a mist goeth up from the earth, and hath watered the whole face of the ground.

Genesis 2:6 [ASV] but there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Genesis 2:6 [ESV] and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground

Genesis 2:6 [CJB] Rather, a mist went up from the earth which watered the entire surface of the ground.

Genesis 2:6 [WEB] but a mist went up from the earth, and watered the whole surface of the ground.

Perhaps you could tell us what you mean by "struggled"?

It's interesting you use that word, in light of ...

Psalm 56:5 Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts are against me for evil.

(Or do you take Sundays off?)
Modern scholarship ...
... can take a hike.
In any case, the tradition in some parts of Christendom which claims that rainfall had never been experienced prior to Noah's Flood has NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT.
Okay with you if I giggle at this?
Indeed, the ONLY prooftext is Genesis 2:5,6! And that clearly refers to a PARTICULAR ERETZ ("land"), not the entire planet!
Watch it now, or you'll start making up in volume what you lack in persuasion.
 
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freezerman2000

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The radiation in the Cambrain was due to the Great Oxygen Event that took place in the Pre Cambrian. They call this the oxygen catastrophe because there was a need for the earth to deal with the abundance of Oxygen. Geology had reached a saturation point and was no longer able to absorb the Oxygen. Evolutionists know that the driving force behind evolutionary change in the biodiversity of the species is due to environmental changes in the ecosystem. It is a sink or swim, adapt or go extinct situation.

Sources? I gave sources.Information with nothing to back it up can..take a LONG hike.

Who are "they"?

Give us something credible
 
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OldWiseGuy

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In any case, the tradition in some parts of Christendom which claims that rainfall had never been experienced prior to Noah's Flood has NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT. Indeed, the ONLY prooftext is Genesis 2:5,6! And that clearly refers to a PARTICULAR ERETZ ("land"), not the entire planet!

Good points, and I have considered both scenarios as the 'mist' can refer to the full water cycle resulting in rainfall.

My main thought was the added ability of the (whole) ground to retain much of the 40 days of rainfall, which would certainly have weighed the continent down a bit. I must admit this is a bit of a stretch in any case as the earth had recently been fully under water from the last global flood. But even if the ground and aquifers were fully charged with water enough of the rainfall would remain upon the land to press it down under its weight. All of the inland low places and catchment areas would be filled with water. Great inland seas and lakes would form retaining huge amounts of water.

We saw this here in southern Wisconsin several years ago when we experienced unprecedented rainfall that turned tens of thousands of acres of farmland into lakes. Many of these lakes remained for years as the ground couldn't absorb the water. One in particular that I drive by often finally dried up after about five years, but a recent heavy rain once again turned it into a huge lake indicating that the ground beneath is still saturated. This particular 'sky pond' as the DNR terms it covered over 300 acres and was four feet deep over most of it's area. Another a few miles away covered over a thousand acres and was even deeper. That too remained for over five years.

An interesting side note is that instead of turning the flooded land 'sour' and unfit for planting farmers were successfully planting and growing crops on this land as soon as the water receded and they were able to get in.
 
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