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Doctrine that Adds to Scripture

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concretecamper

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First you asked
Back to my question. You mentioned something happening to the Church after about 1,000 years. What, pray tell, was that momentous event?

then you asked
So, which denomination, other than your own, came into existence after over 1,000 years.


I am having trouble keeping up with you. Are these the same question? I am glad I was able to refocus you.

Anyway, the answer to your 2nd question is about 1,000 years after the Church defined the 2 Natures of Christ, King Henry VIII, Luther, et al went AWOL with their own theology.
 
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Albion

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There are several verses that are cited by defenders of Holy Tradition, and none of them supports the idea of Holy Tradition. None.

They are used in order to claim that there is some basis for the theory which can be found in Scripture (odd isn't it, considering that the theory of Holy Tradition is that we don't need God's word in order to know his revelation?!), but all of them have to be represented as saying something that they do not say.
 
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kepha31

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There are several verses that are cited by defenders of Holy Tradition, and none of them supports the idea of Holy Tradition. None.

They are used in order to claim that there is some basis for the theory which can be found in Scripture (odd isn't it, considering that the theory of Holy Tradition is that we don't need God's word in order to know his revelation?!), but all of them have to be represented as saying something that they do not say.
For the second time, which verses? I quoted from this site:
"Tradition" Isn't a Dirty Word and you replied with nothing but straw man fallacies.
"the theory of Holy Tradition is that we don't need God's word in order to know his revelation?!)"
This is what I mean by making up your own definition, then knocking it down. Still can't read my signature?

Try this one: One might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history...

STRAW MAN FALLACY​

stawman.png
 
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Albion

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For the second time, which verses? I quoted from this site:
"Tradition" Isn't a Dirty Word and you replied with nothing but straw man fallacies.
"the theory of Holy Tradition is that we don't need God's word in order to know his revelation?!)"
You may shout 'Strawman' until the cows come home, but this is not a strawman.

None of those verses even mentions "Holy Tradition," "Sacred Tradition," or even "Tradition." And none of them refers to the theory that IS Holy Tradition.

That said, I am willing to read any argument in favor of Holy Tradition, but throwing out a verse that doesn't refer to it will not do that job.

(And, no, I don't see any signatures. That's optional.)
 
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kepha31

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You may shout 'Strawman' until the cows come home, but this is not a strawman.

None of those verses even mentions "Holy Tradition," "Sacred Tradition," or even "Tradition." And none of them refers to the theory that IS Holy Tradition.
Yes, it does say Tradition. You either didn't read it or you are blind.

That said, I am willing to read any argument in favor of Holy Tradition, but throwing out a verse that doesn't refer to it will not do that job.
(And, no, I don't see any signatures. That's optional.)
There is a link that you ignored containing several verses on Tradition that you say is not there, in post # 60. Here it is again.
"Tradition" Isn't a Dirty Word

Here is another suitable definition:

First of all, one might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history: in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the incarnation, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.). Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church’s authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.​
That is in the link you can't read for some reason.
"Tradition" Isn't a Dirty Word

This is one definition from the catechism:
CCC 76 In keeping with the Lord's command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

- orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit";(THIS IS TRADITION)
- in writing ...
Click on CCC 76 for more context.

Mark 13:31 – heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus’ Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:15 – Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally.

Luke 10:16 – He who hears you (not “who reads your writings”), hears me. The oral word passes from Jesus to the apostles to their successors by the gracious gifts of the Holy Spirit. This succession has been preserved in the Holy Catholic Church.

Luke 24:47 – Jesus explains that repentance and forgiveness of sins must be preached (not written) in Christ’s name to all nations. For Protestants to argue that the word of God is now limited to a book (subject to thousands of different interpretations) is to not only ignore Scripture, but introduce a radical theory about how God spreads His word which would have been unbelievable to the people at the time of Jesus.

More here ORAL APOSTOLIC TRADITION - Scripture Catholic

All this isn't even close to your re-definitions, preconceived notions and straw man fallacies.


sola_013.png
 
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kepha31

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Oral Tradition that is mentioned in 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 3:14-15; 2 Thess 2:15, etc. does not refer to orally transmitting the message of the Bible. It refers to the Oral Tradition apart from the Written Tradition (the Bible).

The Oral Tradition has not been corrupted and we know this for three reasons:

1) Oral Tradition and Written Tradition compliment one another and not contradict each other. But not everything is written in the Bible, according to the Bible itself (i.e. John 21:25; Acts 20:35). Thus since not everything is in the written record if Oral Tradition says something that is not explicit in the Written Tradition that does not make the Oral Tradition wrong. It only means that that subject was not mentioned in the Written Record.

Oral Tradition was a long time aspect of the religious life of the Jews. They recognized the existence of Divine Oral Tradition. There are some passages in the New Testament, for example, that refer to the Divine Revelation of the Old Testament but deal with items not in the written Old Testament. It is obvious the Apostles knew and believed in a Divine Oral Tradition.

2) The importance of Oral Tradition is great. This is seen by the fact that St. Paul tells us to listen to and obey Tradition (that is Divine Tradition, not human customs) as Scripture. He even tells us that people who do not follow this Divine Oral Tradition are to be shunned (2 Thess 3:14).

All the possible teachings of Jesus cannot possibly be placed into one book and the Bible itself affirms. Also, there were no New Testament Scriptures in the early decades of the Church. All that existed was the Oral Tradition of the Apostles. Even after the letters of the New Testament began to be written and passed around it was not until the 4th century that the Church put in place exactly which letters were to be considered Scripture and which were not. How the bishops made that decision was, in part, on whether the letter in question was consistent with the Oral Tradition handed down from the Apostles.

Oral Tradition ALWAYS precedes Written Tradition. Written Tradition (the bible) is a small subset of the larger Oral Tradition. This has always been the case - in the Old Testament and in the New Testament times.

3) I proper concern is whether or not this Divine Oral Tradition is passed on from generation to generation accurately. Well, God is not so cruel that He would not account for some way to preserve His Word. His Word, after all is life. We must have a way to preserve the Word of God. God did that through a Magisterium protected by the Holy Spirit. God has ALWAYS had a Magisterium. In the Old Testament times we had the Chair of Moses that Jesus mentions in Matt 23:2. For the New Covenant a new chair of authority was put into place --- just as was done with the previous four covenants in Old Testament times. This new chair was and is the Chair of Peter (Matt 16, Isa 22:21-23).

But how to we check to be sure, if we do not have the faith to trust God's Magisterium? Well, the same way that we can know for sure that the Bible we read today is the what was actually written in the First Century -- by comparing what we have today with the written record of history.

In the case of the Bible, we compare what we have today with extant manuscripts from as close to the first century as possible.

In the case of the Oral Tradition, the same is true. We look to extant manuscripts of sermons, essays, Church documents, etc. from the Church Fathers that affirm that what we believe today is the same things that they believed then.

There is NO doctrine of the Catholic Church that cannot be traced to the early Church. Over the centuries our understanding of doctrine has matured from that of the infant Church, but the doctrine remains unchanged. We know this because we can prove it with documentary evidence.

When Protestants posit a theological belief that is contrary to what the Catholics believe, I ask that person to show me where any of the Church Fathers believed has he believes. If the early Christians believed as the Protestants do today there would be some evidence of this -- essays, sermons, writings of some sort. But there are none. The Catholic Church, however, can produce truckloads of extant manuscripts from the First, Second, and Third Centuries that show the foundation for ALL that the Catholic Church believes.

This evidence is overwhelming and sure. There are no other works of antiquity that we are as sure about as we are about the teachings of the Catholic Church.

One of the rules of historical documentary evidence is that a manuscript that was written or copied 50 years after the actual event or after the original autograph is most likely to be more accurate than a copy made 500 years late.

But with the New Testament writings we have extant copies only a few decades from the original autographs. This is POWERFUL evidence that the Bible we have today is indeed the accurate writings of the Apostles.

In similar manner, we have extant copies of the thinking and teachings of the Church Fathers that we can compare to prove that the Oral Tradition we teach today had its foundations and beginnings in the early Church.

If a person is to believe that the Platonic Dialogues are actually written by Plato some 2300 years ago, then one should have no problems believing that the Oral Tradition of the Church is intact for the evidence for the Church is nearly absolute, the evidence for Plato is essentially speculative.
by Br. Ignatius Mary
 
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concretecamper

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I have to admit, there is a certain circular reasoning to diminishing the authority of scripture while citing one's interpretation of scripture as authority for doing so.

If one approaches the Word of God with the supposition that you should only believe what the Bible teaches (even though the Bible never says that) then I can see why you are confused.
 
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Phil 1:21

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If one approaches the Word of God with the supposition that you should only believe what the Bible teaches (even though the Bible never says that) then I can see why you are confused.

Trying to figure out where I said I was confused.... :scratch:
 
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concretecamper

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Trying to figure out where I said I was confused.... :scratch:
Because I didn't say you said you were confused.

But whether or not you think you are or are not doesn't really matter much in reality, does it.
 
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