Doctrine of the Nature of Man...

[skypair]

Calvinists need to get a new handle on this.

Their "doctrine of the nature of man" is so skewed by Calvinism that they cannot see the truth. Do you not know that the Gentiles have "the law of God written on their hearts, their consciences bearing witness...?" that "they do by nature the things contained in the law?" Is that what you call "doing evil" in your doctrine? Do you not know that God actually blesses people who obey His laws .. even just a few of them? Yeah, it's a spiritual law that when we obey a law, God blesses us. Many of those who honored their father and mother will realize this.

Let's rebuild that model and leave out the "total depravity"/"total inability" thingy, shall we? because ALL men are conscious of there being a God (Ro 1:18-20). And some men even choose to acknowledge, glorify, and thank Him — especially as children when "their angels [spirits] do always behold the face of God." (Mt 18:10) You do have children in your Sunday Schools, don't you?

We are born with an INNOCENT human nature (Ezek 18:20). There is NO sin or sin guilt passed through the generations from Adam. The only thing that David would point out to you is that we are born in corruptible flesh, Psa 51:5, destined/predisposed to sin. But we also have a God-given instinct that, throughout life, draws us to God .. and that is the instinct to life — eternal life if possible (Ecc 3:11). And Paul will even tell you that he was "alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." (Ro 7:9) See that? He thereafter had to be "born again."

So the commandment comes and Paul coveted again knowingly .. willingly. Paul died spiritually .. his nature became sin nature. He became a sinner because he sinned. Get it? It was death to his SOUL or CONSCIENCE but not to his SPIRIT, MIND. The spirit/mind can still think. It can still process input like the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is NOT unable to do that and respond to it. In fact, when there are choices to make, the mind has the facility of free will and, once informed of the gospel, can as easily respond to or reject it.

The response is repentance of the heart or will to God turning from sin nature and receiving God's nature — the Holy Spirit — in our SOUL. You know, I am sure, that the conscience tells you right from wrong. Yeah, that is what we discovered above told the Gentiles the law of God. Well, now it is not your conscience but God's that answers back! When your spirit comes asking if something is right or wrong, the Spirit in your soul/conscience responds. Instead of that "my will be done" conscience you used to have, it says, "Thy will be done." The Spirit/conscience NEVER tells you to sin .. which is why the child of God is sinless in soul or conscience (1Jn 3:9) and yet may sin in both mind and flesh. We call that "going solo" or "doing it all on your own." You will pay for that in this life and in the next .. so blessing and reward only comes by obeying the Spirit.

Is there anything I have left out? Well, what did the OT saints have for "conscience?" The Mosaic law, right? What to we have for conscience? The "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, Ro 8:2 — which is LOVE. The 2 commandments of this "law" are 1) love God and 2) love others as oneself, right? If we do everything in love (asking ourselves if what we are about to do is loving or not), we cannot sin, can we?

Understand this: The spiritual warfare, Eph 6, is between the conscience and the flesh and takes place in the spirit or mind. Even the warfare over whether to be saved by repenting and committing you life to Christ or not. Those that say this does not happen, that God takes over the conscience at His will through regeneration, are deceived.

skypair

 

[JLR1300]

First, I think it would be good to understand a common method which the Biblical writers utilize to make a point. Often in the scriptures the point is made that God is a fair and just God and, therefore, if a man lives a righteous life, God will give him eternal life. Hypothetically speaking, if a man is good he can indeed be saved. In theory, salvation could occur by keeping the law. But then the scriptures point out that in reality there are none that keep the law and there are none that are good... so this method is closed. Since that is the case...salvation must now be by faith in Christ through the grace of Christ.

Early in the book of Romans Paul uses this exact methodology or literary device. He acknowledges that "God...will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory honor and immortality." So Paul says that those who do good will receive eternal life. Paul's point is that God is just and fair and He will give eternal life to those who are good if there truly are any that are good.
But according to Paul that is only hypothetical. In the very next chapter Paul says that the problem is that no one is ever good.

Romans 3:10 says... "There is none righteous no not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God... There is no one who does good NO NOT ONE"

So God is just and fair and therefore, hypothetically speaking, those who do good will receive eternal life.... but in actuality, no one does good. No one does righteousness and no one seeks after God. So no one can obtain eternal life by doing good.

My point is this... you can quote from Romans 2 all day long trying to prove that man can be good... but that is just the part of Romans where Paul is speaking hypothetically about man being good enough to obtain eternal life. If you will be diligent and continue your study of Romans you will quickly see that in the very next Chapter Paul admits that in reality no one is good and so salvation by legalism cannot occur. Only by the ummerited grace of God can men and women be saved. It is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

So quoting Romans 2 about man's supposed goodness is not a good idea when it comes to interpreting the book of Romans. Read the rest of the book and you will understand Paul's method and the context.

Total depravity or total inablilty really just means what Paul is teaching. That there isn't anyone (prior to salvation) who does good. No one is righteous. No unsaved person is seeking for God. Even though it is true that men have a certain knowledge of God's existence in their heart, nevertheless, that just makes them all the more condemned because they refuse to seek after God. There are none that seek after God. That is what Total depravity teaches. And since there are none who seek after God no one will come to Christ unless the Father draws (Greek:drags) him.

You quoted Ezekiel 18:20. It teaches that when the army of Babylon invades the land of Israel and puts many to the sword and carries the others away into captivity in Babylon the Jews who have been evil and worshipped idols will be killed and yet God will protect those who have been righteous and lived godly lives. Ezekiel was one of those who lived godly and lived. He had to go to Babylon with the captives. Others who had been wicked were killed. Ezekiel says "the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself". In that context Ezekiel taught that those who live for God will be spared from the Sword when the Babylonians attack and those who have been wicked will die. This has nothing to do with eternal salvation and everything to do with physical death. Also it is just a relative righteousness not an absolute righteousness. Like David and Moses were called "righteous" even though David committed Adultery and Moses murdered someone. In the Old Testament if the land of Israel did a good job of following the Old Testament ceremonial law and moral laws it was rewarded with earthly blessings such as bountiful crops and healthy livestock. However, if the people worshiped idols and such God would send foreign armies in to attack and kill multitudes. This in no way proves that a person is able to be truly good and live up to the law and thus go to heaven when he dies. Some were fairly decent outwardly and their physical lives were spared. That has nothing to do with the doctrine of total depravity.

The Bible teaches people are born in sin. Psalm 58:3 says,
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Psalm 51:5 says,
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

So people are born in sin and none of them do good and none are truly righteous and even though we preach the gospel to them there are none that seek after God and so no one will come to Jesus unless the Father drags them.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Oh where do I begin? The OP is such a muddled mess, that there's no wonder he's the poster child for the very reason why the RCC wanted to keep the laity from handling the word of God...borrowed that from another poster on another christian site, btw.

What we call 'good' and what God calls 'good' aren't the same thing. Here's an example of what I am saying....


"And David gathered again every chosen one in Israel, thirty thousand, and David riseth and goeth, and all the people who [are] with him, from Baale-Judah, to bring up thence the ark of God, whose name hath been called -- the name of Jehovah of Hosts, inhabiting the cherubs -- upon it. And they cause the ark of God to ride on a new cart, and lift it up from the house of Abinadab, which [is] in the height, and Uzzah and Ahio sons of Abinadab are leading the new cart; and they lift it up from the house of Abinadab, which [is] in the height, with the ark of God, and Ahio is going before the ark, and David and all the house of Israel are playing before Jehovah, with all kinds of [instruments] of fir-wood, even with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cornets, and with cymbals. And they come unto the threshing-floor of Nachon, and Uzzah putteth forth [his hand] unto the ark of God, and layeth hold on it, for they released the oxen; and the anger of Jehovah burneth against Uzzah, and God smiteth him there for the error, and he dieth there by the ark of God."(2 Samuel 6:1-7 YLT)

Why did God kill Uzzah when he was doing what we would call a 'good deed'? He didn't want it to touch the ground, yet when he touched it, doing what we'd call an admirable thing, God killed him. He was an Levite, and the Levites were the tribe that took care of the Ark of the Covenant. Yet God killed him. Why?

He was not allowed to touch it. He did what we would call a 'good deed', yet he broke one of God's commands, and paid dearly for it.


Look at it another way. You go to a very nice restaurant. You know the owner very well, and he allows you to go back and watch them prepare your steak. You notice the chef comes out of the bathroom, never washes his hands and proceeds to handle your steak. Are you going to eat it? No. Why? He had defiled/dirty hands. The steak itself was 'good', yet he defiled it with unwashened hands. That's how God sees our so called 'good deeds'. The deeds, in and of themselves were 'good', yet they were performed with dirty/defiled hands...hands defiled by sin. That's why we may call giving money to charities, feeding the poor, visiting the sick, 'good deeds', but if these deeds are done by sinners, they are still sin. God sees sinners through their sins. God sees His people through Christ. Major difference.

Apostle Paul put it succinctly....

"If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling; and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing; and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing."(1 Cor. 13:1-3 YLT)


Even the plowing of the wicked is sin...Proverbs 21:4

 

[Bluelion]

Calvinists need to get a new handle on this.

Their "doctrine of the nature of man" is so skewed by Calvinism that they cannot see the truth. Do you not know that the Gentiles have "the law of God written on their hearts, their consciences bearing witness...?" that "they do by nature the things contained in the law?" Is that what you call "doing evil" in your doctrine? Do you not know that God actually blesses people who obey His laws .. even just a few of them? Yeah, it's a spiritual law that when we obey a law, God blesses us. Many of those who honored their father and mother will realize this.

Let's rebuild that model and leave out the "total depravity"/"total inability" thingy, shall we? because ALL men are conscious of there being a God (Ro 1:18-20). And some men even choose to acknowledge, glorify, and thank Him — especially as children when "their angels [spirits] do always behold the face of God." (Mt 18:10) You do have children in your Sunday Schools, don't you?

We are born with an INNOCENT human nature (Ezek 18:20). There is NO sin or sin guilt passed through the generations from Adam. The only thing that David would point out to you is that we are born in corruptible flesh, Psa 51:5, destined/predisposed to sin. But we also have a God-given instinct that, throughout life, draws us to God .. and that is the instinct to life — eternal life if possible (Ecc 3:11). And Paul will even tell you that he was "alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." (Ro 7:9) See that? He thereafter had to be "born again."

So the commandment comes and Paul coveted again knowingly .. willingly. Paul died spiritually .. his nature became sin nature. He became a sinner because he sinned. Get it? It was death to his SOUL or CONSCIENCE but not to his SPIRIT, MIND. The spirit/mind can still think. It can still process input like the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is NOT unable to do that and respond to it. In fact, when there are choices to make, the mind has the facility of free will and, once informed of the gospel, can as easily respond to or reject it.

The response is repentance of the heart or will to God turning from sin nature and receiving God's nature — the Holy Spirit — in our SOUL. You know, I am sure, that the conscience tells you right from wrong. Yeah, that is what we discovered above told the Gentiles the law of God. Well, now it is not your conscience but God's that answers back! When your spirit comes asking if something is right or wrong, the Spirit in your soul/conscience responds. Instead of that "my will be done" conscience you used to have, it says, "Thy will be done." The Spirit/conscience NEVER tells you to sin .. which is why the child of God is sinless in soul or conscience (1Jn 3:9) and yet may sin in both mind and flesh. We call that "going solo" or "doing it all on your own." You will pay for that in this life and in the next .. so blessing and reward only comes by obeying the Spirit.

Is there anything I have left out? Well, what did the OT saints have for "conscience?" The Mosaic law, right? What to we have for conscience? The "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, Ro 8:2 — which is LOVE. The 2 commandments of this "law" are 1) love God and 2) love others as oneself, right? If we do everything in love (asking ourselves if what we are about to do is loving or not), we cannot sin, can we?

Understand this: The spiritual warfare, Eph 6, is between the conscience and the flesh and takes place in the spirit or mind. Even the warfare over whether to be saved by repenting and committing you life to Christ or not. Those that say this does not happen, that God takes over the conscience at His will through regeneration, are deceived.

skypair

I think we need to slow down a bit and keep it to a paragraph. There are many misunderstandings.

The sins of Adam were transferred to us we are born dead, but there is an age of accountability which is why we can say children go to heaven even though dead. See where there is no Law there is no transgression, and children do not understand the Law or have it because they have to be told right from wrong. what they know is wrong is what there parents tell them. but at some age the law become written on there heart and they know right from wrong even if their parents don't tell them or teach them what is wrong is right. My 6 year old is not saved, but he is not accountable either. He lies and say stuff he should not say that shock us we say where did he get that. probably tv or school class mates. But my son is very much spiritual dead, how do I know because i have Christ living in side me. I am working hard on my son, and he prays every night, and He speaks of God, but He has no understanding, not of the Law, nor of Jesus. This is why a Child can not accept Christ untill the child understands what he is doing, so like wise he can not be held to the law he has no concept of yet. This is also why baby Baptism is for the parents not the child and does not count.

When Paul heard the Law He was put to death by the Law, or realized He was dead. He says he would have never known what sin was if not for the Law. The Law showed him he was dead and sinful, and he became hostile to God. Because he could not be right with God by keeping the Law. The Law could not give him life and was impossible for him to keep, so he became hostile to God and sin more as he said.

I see the Calvinist thought and they know I don't agree with them on everything and we have gone round and round. But you think it is a misunderstanding between us? We are born dead certainly seems like total depravity. In a way it is because we can do no good with out God for God is literally Good its self. But Man has Knowledge of Good and evil so he taste each fruit and makes a choice which one he likes. The main issue with some in free will they say no free will. but with out free will there is no choice and no salvation only election. That is the key issue. I think for me i could come together on everything else, but taking away free will takes away the whole story of Life. God wanted us to have a choice, He wanted us to choose Him out of Love and not because he was the only option. That is the key to the whole mystery of why did God let this happen, why does evil go on.

Second issue is Jesus did not die for all, He did and did not. Anyone can accept Christ and God will save them, any human. But not all will accept Him. So on Judgement day Christ will have died for His children, and not for those going to the fire, but he was willing to die for them too. So they are right and wrong. God says He is willing all be saved, this points to what i just explained is true.

I think we are all misunderstanding each other and frankly it is getting in the way of us loving each other and that is a problem because we are breaking Gods law, and not following God when we fight among our selves. Can we just come together and be brothers and sisters in Christ and Love each other. Must we let the world in and reflect the world, or will we reflect Christ.

Would be nice if we could agree on things and see each other view.

 

[skypair]

My point is this... you can quote from Romans 2 all day long trying to prove that man can be good... but that is just the part of Romans where Paul is speaking hypothetically about man being good enough to obtain eternal life.

So how does this account of not account for children?

Gotta go.

Skypair

 

[Hammster]

So how does this account of not account for children?

Gotta go.

Skypair

I'm confused. Are you agreeing that children are born in sin, or not?

 

[NannaNae]

" God actually blesses people who obey His laws" yes but that blessing doesn't give anyone eternal life.
that is why even athiest try and be "GOOD", because bad gets you life in a mess.

but
good and evil as man defines by his own knowledge "good and evil..." is still on the tree which is Death. Eternal death.

so 'good' as mankind decides is good , and with their experiences define what is good or good enough , good enough isn't good enough .

only He is Good. and only He is good enough to invite anyone to be saved. .

 

[skypair]

The sins of Adam were transferred to us we are born dead, but there is an age of accountability which is why we can say children go to heaven even though dead. See where there is no Law there is no transgression, and children do not understand the Law or have it because they have to be told right from wrong.

If we are born dead, then there is no meaning to the phrase "born again," bl. We are born alive and innocent .. then what you say about accountability and the law are true.

My 6 year old is not saved, but he is not accountable either. He lies and say stuff he should not say that shock us we say where did he get that.

Yes, still held by God to be innocent.

I am working hard on my son, and he prays every night, and He speaks of God, but He has no understanding, not of the Law, nor of Jesus. This is why a Child can not accept Christ untill the child understands what he is doing, so like wise he can not be held to the law he has no concept of yet.

He is in that wonderful state of Cornelius and Job — he believes the "everlasting gospel." He acknowledges God, glorifies Him, and thanks Him. He is unaware of any sin he might have sinned against God and so he is innocent.

BTW, a person, even a child, can move right from believing the everlasting gospel into believing the gospel of Jesus Christ without ever knowing he has sinned against God. IOW, from innocence to saved — like Job or Cornelius .. or Timothy who, from a child was taught by his grandmother.

This is also why baby Baptism is for the parents not the child and does not count.

Correct, but more properly we call it "dedication of the child" to Christ — something that was done often by believers in the OT.

The Law showed him he was dead and sinful, and he became hostile to God.

No, the law showed him that he had sinned .. but it wasn't until sin "revived," he sinned again, that he died spiritually. Read Ro 7:9 a little more closely, bl.

And it is all just blather that your child is already hostile to God. Gimme a break! He's praying to God .. he's no doubt going to Sunday School, right? You know why you say he is? because of your damnable doctrine!

We are born dead certainly seems like total depravity.

Are you still talking about your son? Is he totally depraved?

The main issue with some in free will they say no free will. but with out free will there is no choice and no salvation only election.

AMEN! Maybe we can make some sense of those other doctrines now too — seeing as you can choose not to believe them like you did free will.

Second issue is Jesus did not die for all, He did and did not. Anyone can accept Christ and God will save them, any human. But not all will accept Him. So on Judgement day Christ will have died for His children, and not for those going to the fire, but he was willing to die for them too.

Good maybe we can blow this one up, too. The BIBLE says He was the propitiation, the sacrifice, for "not our sins only but the sins of the whole world." (1Jn 2:2). There are numerous places that confirm this — Jn 3:!6, for another instance. If you enjoy being against God, you will also love Calvinism on this doctrine as well.

Do you know where the problem of sin lies and where it has to be "remitted?" It's in you soul or conscience! When you get to the judgment seat, you won't be convicted on account of sin but on account of unbelief .. on account of you didn't repent calling on Christ for salvation and have the "washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Spirit" (1Tim 3:5) that can only be done by God in response to "a broken spirit" and "a contrite heart." (Psa 34:8)

I think we are all misunderstanding each other and frankly it is getting in the way of us loving each other and that is a problem…

It is not unloving to turn someone aside from their wicked ways. But notice this: Calvinists claim not to be able to do that. God has to do that to a person before that person can be turned aside from evil, right? So perhaps what they are doing is not loving but anyone who can turn others aside to God is.

I mean, why would they even try if only God can?

Would be nice if we could agree on things and see each other view.

I quite agree on that. I have made it my ministry to understand right doctrine so that I can place it along side of the erroneous and the distinctions become clear to all.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Hypothetically speaking, if a man is good he can indeed be saved. In theory, salvation could occur by keeping the law.

NO, if a man could keep the law, he would be INNOCENT — innocent as a child, for instance. A child keeps the law because he does not know it. And a dog keeps the law because it does not know the law. Neither has a developed soul or character.

But then the scriptures point out that in reality there are none that keep the law and there are none that are good... so this method is closed.

Only upon commission of willful sin against the law.

Since that is the case...salvation must now be by faith in Christ through the grace of Christ.

Yes, true salvation and the righteousness of God can only be attained through the blood of Christ (repentance), the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Spirit.

skypair