Doctrine of Hell

[john14_20]

Do we honestly have to contend for the salvation of Hitler? Is this just playing the devil's advocate? Tell me what you feel God's sense of judgement is? Also, what do you mean by "God's justice is that the Jews would have their lives restored"?

Hi Carl

The point I am making here is that it is your sense of justice that demands Hitler be punished for his crimes. But this is not real justice.

Ask any parent who has had a child murdered and ask them what justice is. Is it that the murderer gets jailed or killed - or is it that thier child is returned to them, as if the murder never happened?

Punishing someone for killing someone else can never bring justice - an innocent person is dead and that's that. There can be no justice as long as that person remains dead.

If a child is molested the only thing that can be possibly conceived of as being justice is if the molestation never happened. Putting the molestor in jail is not justice - a child has still been molested!

We conceive of justice in the only way we know how, but God and His justice go beyond our capability. God's justice is restorative, not punitive.

You feel as though hell and hades are different and their is no torment in hades?

Luke 16:19-28
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side (where is Abraham? With God?). The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell (or hades) where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Would someone in mental pain need water? Or be in agony as a result of fire? I can agonize over missing the ball to lose the game for my team and I can agonize over a dump truck crushing my leg. If I were in fire, I would certainly be in agony. If I were without Jesus, I would be in great agony in every sense of the word.

God bless.

All I am telling you is what the original text actually says. The text says 'mental anguish'. From that we must seek to understand what else is going on. The fact that the text actually says 'mental anguish' is not up for debate - it is there in black and white in the Greek text. So what is meant by water? What is meant by tongue?

Perhaps water is a reference to Jesus Christ who is the "Living Water"

Interestingly, the word for 'tongue' is glossa. This is the same word that Paul uses when referring to 'speaking in tongues'. It rightly means 'language'.

From the Strongs; "Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired)"

That the man was not being physically tormented on a literal flame and asking for an actual drop of water to be placed upon his tongue is the only thing that the text makes abundantly clear.

And I don't think that hell and hades are any different from each other, and they are no different from sheol - it's all the same place.

And it is not a place of physical torture.

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[hola]

EDIT...I had made a post but I saw error in what I said.

So, I've deleted it.

Sorry.

I would like to add that these things being discussed I have wondered and prayed about for some time...through listening to the discussion with prayer and studying the Word of God, I would like to understand the truth concerning these things.

So, thank you for all of your input.

 

[FineLinen]

Details, details, details. I'm not a smart man and I certainly don't claim to be. I will answer questions that are asked of me, though.

The rich man ignored the ones in need. He had a chance to help him, to love his neighbor as himself, but he chose himself over all others, including God and His holy instruction.

Lazarus obviously received salvation to get to heaven. That's the only way I know that a grown man can get there. Do you know of any others?

Abraham's bosom was a place of comfort. verse 25:"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony."

Other translations say "Abraham's side". Either way, we know that the angels took Lazarus and that I would be foolish to think they were any place but heaven.

I don't know how deep you want to get into the significance of the sores of Lazarus, I've heard plenty of theories on this story and its specifics. David humbly described himself as a dog, referencing a lowly animal at the time. So something lowly licking your wounds wouldn't give you much standing in society. Basically, was in bad shape, at the bottom, where we need help the most. He desired the crumbs because he was hungry. He may have also been hungry for God, I don't know, but as Christians, we should be. Either way, he wanted help from the rich man and received none.

A drop of water? I don't know if they had gallons or litres at the time. I've seen litres in Canada and I still can't tell how much gas that would be by the Canadian dollar. I don't want to speculate on the drop other than he's asking for a little amount, the same way the beggar only wanted crumbs but was refused.

The rich man is now the one begging. He has nothing but time on his hands to lement his bad decisions and to think about others that will be sent into torment as a result of his not showing love to others and helping them. That is a torment in itself. I hate to think of friends and family going to hell, but that's what happens when we reject God and His explicit commands.

The main thing is to reach out to those we don't want to see go to hell, which should be everyone we come across. I pray that I will be used to do this and will not let the needy die at my doorstep. Amen.

God bless.

Hi there C.C. and thankyou for your response. The entire parable of Lazarus and the rich man (name not disclosed), is framed with details, details, details; including the five brethren and the clothing of purple and fine linen to add to the details.

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Why didn't Jesus name the rich man if He named Lazarus? Most of Jesus’ messages where focused on the Jews. He told the Gentile woman that he didn’t come for her kind. I doubt seriously that it’s about being rich. If that were the case, most of the America's would be damned in comparison to the masses that have lived before us.

The rich man, clothed in purple and fine linen was of the seed of Abraham, and he proved his credentials when he cried "Father Abraham." His purple and fine linen speaks clearly of his roll and duty, and as such, he (Israel) fared sumptuously everyday. Purple stands for royalty, and linen for righteousness. Those in purple ruled, and Judah was the royal tribe; it also represented the priesthood of Aaron. This rich man has to be Judah. The Pharisees made their boast of being Abraham's seed, and because of that, fully expected entrance to the Kingdom of heaven regardless of their hypocrisy.

If we think about it for a nano-second....what did the poor man do to deserve Abraham’s bosom, or, the rich man hell? There is no mention of faith or obedience on the part of Lazarus, or lack of faith by the rich man. If we are going to make this a literal event, then they were judged and blessed on their status in life, and not by the depth of their faith. And if this isn’t a parable, then being poor is assurance of heaven, and wealth is assurance of hell. Isn’t it obvious that this is allegoric for poverty of spirit. And, if this was a factual story, then they will have a literal tongue that thirsts, and those in heaven will be able to see those who are suffering. How strange would that be? And how could that be possible if every tear is wiped away? Will we be without feelings? Will we witness this suffering daily and call it heaven?

Lazarus clearly describes the Gentile dogs.

Lazarus=Without help

The name Lazarus means ‘without help’, and it was the only time Jesus gave a name to a character in a parable. Israel considered everyone and every nation outside of themselves as "dogs", and heathen. Lazarus represents those outside of the blessings of the covenants of Israel and the helpless lost world of the heathen. To call it a literal story makes no sense, and is the basis for many Sunday sermons on eternal torment as an end in itself.

[move]And the leaves of the Tree of Life are for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse....[/move]

 

[FineLinen]

A Couple Of Questions

1. What is damnation?

2. Are there degrees of damnation?

3. Are believers subject to damnation?

I will accept no explanation of any way of God that involves what I should scorn as false and unfair in a man. If it is said, 'It may be right of God to do something that it would not be right of man to do,' I answer, 'Yes, because more is required of God--not less.' God can have no duty that is not both just and merciful. More and higher justice and righteousness is required of Him by Himself, the Truth--greater nobleness, more penetrating sympathy, and nothing but what, if an honest man understood it, he would say was right. -George MacDonald- (God The Merciful & Just)

 

[Carl Carlson]

Fine Linen-

I keep reading thru the passage trying to see your point in it, but I just keep coming back to the same thing. I have to believe that it's talking about heaven and hell. I don't have reason to disbelieve the words: death, buried, hell, and torment.

I'm sure you're a smart man filled with wisdom, but I believe that can get you into trouble if you're not careful. Also, why did you ask me the question if you were going to go ahead and answer it? I don't know if your intention was to either smear me or make yourself wise in the eye of the reader, but it didn't seem to me an honest question. I don't want to attack or counter-attack, I just want to clear the air and find out what we're really doing. Forgive me if this seems disrespectful.

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Why didn't Jesus name the rich man if He named Lazarus? Most of Jesus’ messages where focused on the Jews. He told the Gentile woman that he didn’t come for her kind. I doubt seriously that it’s about being rich. If that were the case, most of the America's would be damned in comparison to the masses that have lived before us.

Jesus came for the Jews first, then the rest of the world. Christ died for EVERYONE.

No where does it say that the rich man went to hell for being rich. It is used as an illustration of one who has been given more than he needs and refuses to help those in true need. He allowed a man to die on his doorstep. That has little to do with being rich and everything to do with showing God's love and rejecting an obvious need. We all have been given so much by God and we should use it to help others, especially those in need of salvation.

America has earthly riches, but that's not what we truly need. Our greed and contempt for God and His plan have allowed us to fall away from His blessings. We should consider ourselves in grave danger and take heed of this parable.

The rich man, clothed in purple and fine linen was of the seed of Abraham, and he proved his credentials when he cried "Father Abraham." His purple and fine linen speaks clearly of his roll and duty, and as such, he (Israel) fared sumptuously everyday. Purple stands for royalty, and linen for righteousness. Those in purple ruled, and Judah was the royal tribe; it also represented the priesthood of Aaron. This rich man has to be Judah. The Pharisees made their boast of being Abraham's seed, and because of that, fully expected entrance to the Kingdom of heaven regardless of their hypocrisy.

I'm not sure I agree with all of that. I have heard different pieces of what you're saying, but I can't say that "this rich man has to be Judah". Was this parable not to be used in future generations? Everyone else cannot benefit from this teaching?

And, if this was a factual story, then they will have a literal tongue that thirsts, and those in heaven will be able to see those who are suffering. How strange would that be? And how could that be possible if every tear is wiped away? Will we be without feelings? Will we witness this suffering daily and call it heaven?

I believe there will be torment of every kind imaginable and more; physical, emotional, mental, all of it. We will be constantly in torment and will never grow used to it.

It doesn't say that Lazarus saw the rich man, only Abraham. It also said there was a large chasm where they couldn't reach each other. In hell, you will be constantly reminded of those in your life, lamenting on the times you rejected the gospel from Christians, opportunites to show Christ's love, times that you angered God by sinning against Him. It says elsewhere in Scripture that those in heaven will have not a memory of the unsaved in hell. You won't miss them, which is hard for us to comprehend.

It is important, I believe, to note that the rich man wanted Lazarus to warn his family (his five brother) so they "will not go to this place of torment." That's pretty blatant statement of where he is and his realization of the reality of hell. He is in great torment and does not want his family to go there. Why else would a warning be necessary? What he want to keep his brothers from entering into?


On another note...
[move] Thanks for showing me how to move text. [/move]

The name Lazarus means ‘without help’, and it was the only time Jesus gave a name to a character in a parable. Israel considered everyone and every nation outside of themselves as "dogs", and heathen. Lazarus represents those outside of the blessings of the covenants of Israel and the helpless lost world of the heathen. To call it a literal story makes no sense, and is the basis for many Sunday sermons on eternal torment as an end in itself.

I don't see how this affects the reality of hell and judgement day. Either way, I understand that hell is real, whether you may believe this parable is speaking of hell or not. I'm not sure I see the point in trying to prove a specific parable and it's mentions of hell to not be talking about hell at all.

I admit I cannot pinpoint every detail of any parable of Jesus. God works on so many levels that I can't even begin to wrap my brain around it all. I understand the main points of the parables, which for me is pretty good. I will very openly admit that God's wisdom and detail blows my mind and humbles me to even think about. I cannot claim to know much about God in relation to true wisdom. I am just a human with incredible limitations and only in Christ can I hope to exceed those limitations. I have plenty of questions that I cannot answer and I am waiting to ask Jesus when I get to heaven. My main concern is that I get there. I can see potential problems with overanalyzing specific text and trying to expand my head knowledge, when God isn't concerned with my brain. I can't compete with you on an intellectual level and to be honest with you, I really don't want to. My focus is on my heart and where God's Spirit leads me. I pray the same for you.

Thank you for your time and may God bless you.

 

[FineLinen]

Fine Linen-

I keep reading thru the passage trying to see your point in it, but I just keep coming back to the same thing. I have to believe that it's talking about heaven and hell. I don't have reason to disbelieve the words: death, buried, hell, and torment.

I'm sure you're a smart man filled with wisdom, but I believe that can get you into trouble if you're not careful. Also, why did you ask me the question if you were going to go ahead and answer it? I don't know if your intention was to either smear me or make yourself wise in the eye of the reader, but it didn't seem to me an honest question. I don't want to attack or counter-attack, I just want to clear the air and find out what we're really doing. Forgive me if this seems disrespectful.

Jesus came for the Jews first, then the rest of the world. Christ died for EVERYONE.

No where does it say that the rich man went to hell for being rich. It is used as an illustration of one who has been given more than he needs and refuses to help those in true need. He allowed a man to die on his doorstep. That has little to do with being rich and everything to do with showing God's love and rejecting an obvious need. We all have been given so much by God and we should use it to help others, especially those in need of salvation.

America has earthly riches, but that's not what we truly need. Our greed and contempt for God and His plan have allowed us to fall away from His blessings. We should consider ourselves in grave danger and take heed of this parable.

I'm not sure I agree with all of that. I have heard different pieces of what you're saying, but I can't say that "this rich man has to be Judah". Was this parable not to be used in future generations? Everyone else cannot benefit from this teaching?

I believe there will be torment of every kind imaginable and more; physical, emotional, mental, all of it. We will be constantly in torment and will never grow used to it.

It doesn't say that Lazarus saw the rich man, only Abraham. It also said there was a large chasm where they couldn't reach each other. In hell, you will be constantly reminded of those in your life, lamenting on the times you rejected the gospel from Christians, opportunites to show Christ's love, times that you angered God by sinning against Him. It says elsewhere in Scripture that those in heaven will have not a memory of the unsaved in hell. You won't miss them, which is hard for us to comprehend.

It is important, I believe, to note that the rich man wanted Lazarus to warn his family (his five brother) so they "will not go to this place of torment." That's pretty blatant statement of where he is and his realization of the reality of hell. He is in great torment and does not want his family to go there. Why else would a warning be necessary? What he want to keep his brothers from entering into?


On another note...
[move] Thanks for showing me how to move text. [/move]

I don't see how this affects the reality of hell and judgement day. Either way, I understand that hell is real, whether you may believe this parable is speaking of hell or not. I'm not sure I see the point in trying to prove a specific parable and it's mentions of hell to not be talking about hell at all.

I admit I cannot pinpoint every detail of any parable of Jesus. God works on so many levels that I can't even begin to wrap my brain around it all. I understand the main points of the parables, which for me is pretty good. I will very openly admit that God's wisdom and detail blows my mind and humbles me to even think about. I cannot claim to know much about God in relation to true wisdom. I am just a human with incredible limitations and only in Christ can I hope to exceed those limitations. I have plenty of questions that I cannot answer and I am waiting to ask Jesus when I get to heaven. My main concern is that I get there. I can see potential problems with overanalyzing specific text and trying to expand my head knowledge, when God isn't concerned with my brain. I can't compete with you on an intellectual level and to be honest with you, I really don't want to. My focus is on my heart and where God's Spirit leads me. I pray the same for you.

Thank you for your time and may God bless you.

Greetings again C.C. Each of us must know God as He manifests Himself to us by way of the revelation of the Holy Spirit. Being transformed by the complete renewal of the mind is identical with the glorious experience of a crawling creature being made a heavenly. (metamorphoo) We all are living testimonies of the fact that the poikilos wisdom of God exceeds anything we have ever asked, or can think, or possibly imagine. As you so clearly expressed, "I am just human with incredible limitations". Yes, and most definitely, I as well; only the overshadowing abundance of the Christ can expand our thinking, our being, and the exceeding darkness of our hearts and minds with His radiant glory and grace. We are like those who have gone before: when our Lord speaks of heavenly things, we exclaim "How can these things be?"

We are currently heading for a solid month of classified travel. Please excuse this short post. I do appreciate your response, and the time it has taken you to prepare one of this magnitude. May the great glory of the Father continue to lead each of us into the many levels that pour from His Heart!

[move]God was in Christ returning to favour the whole alienated and hostile mass of humanity unto Himself.[/move]

 

[Carl Carlson]

Enjoy your classified travel. Should you declassify, you'll have to tell us all about it.

Enjoy and God bless!

 

[Rockhead]

Carl Carlson: Actually there are more than that! Sh@owl is translated in the K.J.V. as hell and grave, as well as pit. Furthermore; you will also find that tartarus is mentioned in one passage of Scripture, also translated hell.

Can you tell us the significance of the following in the parable of Lazarus and the richman?

1. What qualified the rich man for hell?

2. What qualified the poor man for "Abraham's bosom"?

3. What is the significance of Abraham's bosom?

4. What is the significance of.....

a. the sores of Lazarus

b. the dogs & the same licking the sores of Lazarus.

c. the crumbs falling from the rich mans table.

d. a drop of water, rather than a cup or litre, or gallon.

5. Why is the rich man communicating with Abraham?

Excellent questions F.L.

The Parable

The Rich Man

Lazarus

The Deaths of the Rich Man and Lazarus

Abraham's Bosom

Lazarus In Abraham's Bosom

The Rich Man In Torment

The Great Gulf

http://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html

 

[Rockhead]

The Lord Lesous Christos, the salvation of Jehovah, has declared that there is everlasting punishment for those on the left, and everlasting zoe for those on the right.

What are the qualifications for aionial zoe, and aionial kolasis, according to the Saviour of the holos kosmos?

What are the qualifications for aionial kolasis? Is it failure to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour? Is it failure to believe into Him? Is it sin, or darkness, or iniquity, or unbelief?

The qualifications for aionial kolasis are?


1. _______________________________________________?


2.________________________________________________?


3.________________________________________________?


4_________________________________________________?


5._________________________________________________?


The qualifications for aionial zoe are?


1. _______________________________________________?


2.________________________________________________?


3.________________________________________________?


4_________________________________________________?


5._________________________________________________?


6._________________________________________________?

Has anybody responded to these questions yet? What is the basis for everlasting punishment and everlasting life in the context of Matt. 25?

 

[john14_20]

Has anybody responded to these questions yet? What is the basis for everlasting punishment and everlasting life in the context of Matt. 25?

Nobody has answered these questions yet.

I am eagerly awaiting Fine Linen to answer himself

How about it brother?

 

[Rockhead]

Nobody has answered these questions yet.

I am eagerly awaiting Fine Linen to answer himself

How about it brother?

Thanks John. A few months ago Linen asked a number of questions to another poster to which the respondent answered;

You answer your questions and I will tell you if you are right or wrong.