Doctrine of Hell

[GenemZ]

PS
I also want to say I did not mean that I could save anyone. Only Jesus can save someone. All I meant was that I intend to let people know about Jesus and be an example of his Love and Mercy. I do not mean to mislead this post, I am no savior, I am only a believer.

I was not trying to say you really believed that. But, it was ambiguous enough for me to wish to jump in and define what many have a wrong concept about. Some are so arrogant to believe that if they fail to witness to a certain person, that God will allow that person to perish. We need God, its not the other way around. God is not incompetent. If he knows someone will refuse to witness to a certain person, he will provide another believer who is willing. No one is going to Hell because of bad examples of believers. If it depended on there being believers who only appeal to unbelievers, I would have never gotten saved. I had many excuses to reject, but I saw the Lord before I saw people. That is the true way the Lord works in the hearts of men.

Billy Graham does not lead people to Christ. He simply announces what is needed, so that God can finish up what he had started in men's hearts.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:37 - 40 niv

Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[good4u]

The doctrine of hell is very real in the Bible. In fact, Jesus spoke of hell and hellfire more than He did of heaven. I also took a seminary class on hell and indeed, if you were not a Christian before you certainly were after taking that class. It was terrifying and sobering.

 

[john14_20]

FYI,

I have found out that there is name for the belief that unbelievers will cease to exist at some point: annihilationism or conditionalism. It comes in a few variations and there seems to be mature Christians making well thought arguements for both the pro and con side. (Of course, there are also some pretty poor - in reasoning and in tone -writings. This topic seems to prompt some Christians to get pretty ugly with other members of the Body of Christ. Sad.)

A Google search will bring up a number of sites worth looking at. Also, there is a book, "Two views of Hell: A biblical and theological dialog," InterVarsity Press, (2000), that looks like it may be a fair discussion from a Biblical perspective.

There is a book out called "Four Views on Hell" and it is a terrific little book.

Four authors write about hell from thier perspective and then the other three authours critique what they wrote. It is all done Biblically, and with respect for one another.

The views are: Traditionalism, Universalism, Purgatory and Annihilationism.

Clark Pinnock is the author that makes the case for annihilationism or conditionalism in the book but he fails to differentiate between them. In fact many people do not recognise they are different. (although both views end up in the same place, they take a different path to get there)

Blessings in Christ, Pete

 

[good4u]

So, here's a question:

Where does scripture indicate that the unbeliever is punished forever rather than consumed (cease to exist) by hell?

Hell is a concious awareness of torment, if it were not so, Jesus would have stated such. Remember that Jesus taught of the rich and poor men and Lazerus went to Abraham's bosom (paradise) and the rich man went to the eternal flame. This is an excellent example of why there is conciousness after death as Jesus relates this example.

 

[john14_20]

Furthermore, annihilationism or conditionalism is a very popular belief among Christians now. It has been gaining ground over the last decade or so.

Many many Christians have thankfully rejected the pagan mythology disguised as Christian doctrine, that hell is a literal place of flames and torture and agony that has no end for the sinner.

I can not align myself with this position however, as it is a denial of the work of Christ.

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[good4u]

Okay, John 14_20, how is denying that hell is a literal place nullifying the work of Christ? You lost me on that one.

 

[good4u]

Oh wait, I read that wrong. I think you mean there is a literal hell to save sinners from going there which is the point of Christ's death. Got it!!

 

[john14_20]

Oh wait, I read that wrong. I think you mean there is a literal hell to save sinners from going there which is the point of Christ's death. Got it!!

Hi good4u What I really meant was that I think that annihilationism denies the work of Christ.

Blessings, Pete

 

[FineLinen]

The doctrine of hell is very real in the Bible. In fact, Jesus spoke of hell and hellfire more than He did of heaven. I also took a seminary class on hell and indeed, if you were not a Christian before you certainly were after taking that class. It was terrifying and sobering.

Wow! This is exciting information Good4u. Slightly discombobulated information, but exciting none-the-less!

Number of times Jesus Christ spoke of Gehenna and hades....

St. Matthew.....9

St. Mark..........3

St. Luke.........3

St. John.........0

Number of times Jesus Christ spoke of heaven......

St. Matthew......68

St. Mark.........15

St. Luke.........24

St. John.........10

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/o/loveofgo.htm

The love of God is greater far

Than tongue or pen can ever tell;

It goes beyond the highest star,

And reaches to the lowest hell;

The guilty pair, bowed down with care,

God gave His Son to win;

His erring child He reconciled,

And pardoned from his sin.

 

[GenemZ]

Furthermore, annihilationism or conditionalism is a very popular belief among Christians now. It has been gaining ground over the last decade or so.

Many many Christians have thankfully rejected the pagan mythology disguised as Christian doctrine, that hell is a literal place of flames and torture and agony that has no end for the sinner.

I can not align myself with this position however, as it is a denial of the work of Christ.

Pagan mythology believed in gods. Should we therefore, reject God? Certain pagan religions believed in an after life. Should we also reject that?

Just because something is a popular belief, does that make it right?

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. " 2 Timothy 4:3 niv

Popular, shmopular... Hell is an unpleasant subject. Itching ears hate hearing about it.

Grace and truth......... GeneZ

 

[FineLinen]

Just because something is a popular belief, does that make it right?

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. " 2 Timothy 4:3 niv

Popular, shmopular... Hell is an unpleasant subject. Itching ears hate hearing about it.

Hi there GeneZ. The popular belief in hell must be right. Hell is a wonderful subject that those with non-itching ears do not consider unpleasant at all! In fact: there is delight associated with the Father finally getting even with those who have been made prisoners of slavery, "not willingly."

[move]"For the creation was made subject to the depravity of slavery, not by choice, but by reason of Him who has so subjected it, in hope."[/move]

Why???.......

Why has our Father subjected His creation to slavery? What is the hope to be made manifest in the Lord and Saviour, the Lord Lesous Christos?

That in the end, the universe itself/ the whole of created life, shall be delivered/ rescued from the bondage of slavery into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 

[FineLinen]

Welcome to the Hope of the Gospel, glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people. The Lord your God requires the following of you.....

Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward in heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for He is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked/to the wicked and cruel.

The Father's standard: we are to "be therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful."

These words from our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ, express the nature of our Father to His creation!

Welcome now to the doctor's of hell, those whose vision of judgement, condemnation, unending torment by the Infinite One is the following.....

And I bring you glad tidings of great joy!

Tertullian

At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness…

Jonathan Edwards

Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!

The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.

Thomas Aquinas

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them.

Jeremy Taylor

Husbands shall see their wives, parents shall see their children tormented before their eyes…the bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell like grapes in a wine-press, which press on another till they burst…

Tertullian

How shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause.

Jeremy Taylor of the Church of England

The bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell, like grapes in a wine-press, which press one another till they burst; every distinct sense and organ shall be assailed with its own appropriate and most exquisite sufferings.

Jonathan Edwards (A Calvinist of the "Great Awakening" fame. Newspapers reported people leaving his sermons and committing suicide from the fear he instilled in them.)

The world will probably be converted into a great lake or liquid globe of fire, in which the wicked shall be overwhelmed, which will always be in tempest, in which they shall be tossed to and fro, having no rest day and night, vast waves and billows of fire continually rolling over their heads, of which they shall forever be full of a quick sense within and without; their heads, their eyes, their tongues, their hands, their feet, their loins and their vitals, shall forever be full of a flowing, melting fire, fierce enough to melt the very rocks and elements; and also, they shall eternally be full of the most quick and lively sense to feel the torments; not for one minute, not for one day, not for one age, not for two ages, not for a hundred ages, nor for ten thousand millions of ages, one after another, but forever and ever, without any end at all, and never to be delivered.

John Calvin (Who had some of his theological enemies burned to death in green slow-burning wood)

Calvin describes hell as:

Forever harrassed with a dreadful tempest, they shall feel themselves torn asunder by an angry God, and transfixed and penetrated by mortal stings, terrified by the thunderbolts of God, and broken by the weight of his hand, so that to sink into any gulf would be more tolerable than to stand for a moment in these terrors.

The Reverend C. H. Spurgeon in his sermon on the Resurrection of the Dead:

When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it, but at the day of judgment thy body will join thy soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused with agony. In fire exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all thy veins roads for the feet of pain to travel on, every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play his diabolical tune of 'Hell's Unutterable Lament.

Note:

Spurgeon is not content with one hell only....he must have two!

Night Thoughts by Young

Father of Mercies! Why from silent earth didst thou awake and curse me into birth, tear me from quiet, banish me from night, and make a thankless present of Thy light, push into being a reverse of Thee and animate a clod with misery?

Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R. in his book The Sight of Hell (A Catholic book for children)

Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you. He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever without stopping. The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered, from head to foot, with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make your body twice as bad as the body of Job. The third stroke will make your body three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How, then, will your body be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million of years without stopping? Perhaps at this moment, seven o'clock in he evening, a child is just going into hell. To-morrow evening, at seven o'clock, go and knock at the gates of hell and ask what the child is doing. The devils will go and look. They will come back again and say, the child is burning. Go in week and ask what the child is doing; you will get the same answer, it is burning; Go in a year and asks the same answer comes--it is burning. Go in a million of years and ask the same question, the answer is just the same--it is burning. So, if you go for ever and ever, you will always get the same answer--it is burning in the fire.

More from the Reverend J. Furniss, C.S.S.R.

"The fifth dungeon is the red hot oven. The little child is in the red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out; see how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor."

Reverend E.B. Pusey, D.D.

Gather in one, in your mind, an assembly of all those men and women, from whom, whether in history or in fiction, your memory most shrinks, gather in mind all that is loathsome, most revolting.....conceive the fierce, fiery eyes of hate, spite, frenzied rage, ever fixed on thee, looking thee through and through with hate....

...hear those yells of blaspheming concentrated hate, as they echo along the lurid vault of hell; everyone hating everyone.

Thank you gentlemen, and now a word from Heaven!

"In His love He chose us as His own in Christ before the foundation of the world...It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will.

And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.

In Him, too, we have been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him who carries out in everything the design of His own will."

 

[GenemZ]

Hi there GeneZ. The popular belief in hell must be right. Hell is a wonderful subject that those with non-itching ears do not consider unpleasant at all! In fact: there is delight associated with the Father finally getting even with those who have been made prisoners of slavery, "not willingly."

"For the creation was made subject to the depravity of slavery, not by choice, but by reason of Him who has so subjected it, in hope."

Why???.......

Why has our Father subjected His creation to slavery? What is the hope to be made manifest in the Lord and Saviour, the Lord Lesous Christos?

You chose a poor translation, that's why. The word is not slavery.

Romans 8:20

"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope. " NIV

"or the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope ..."NASB

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.." KJV

Now, more in its context:


"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:19-21 niv

The creation fell when Adam fell. Thorns and thistles appeared AFTER Adam fell, not before. Animals were not ferocious and snakes poisonous until after Adam fell. The entire creation is awaiting the revealing of the resurrection of the church, so the creation can be transformed into a glorious environment. Hence, the New Heavens and Earth.

What you quoted has nothing to do with man being a slave to not believing. It has to do with the environment that we now find ourselves. One of frustration (no matter how beautiful the scene may be) as to make man dependent upon seeking the Lord for their freedom!

2 Corinthians 3:17

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." KJV

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." NIV

Man chooses his master. He is either slave to the cosmic system of Satan... Or, he makes himself a slave to Liberty (ironic).

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ." Joshua 24:15 niv

He who chooses false doctrine, makes himself a slave to the one who produced it.

Grace in Truth.... GeneZ

 

[FineLinen]

You chose a poor translation, that's why. The word is not slavery.

Romans 8:20

"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope. " NIV

"or the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope ..."NASB

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.." KJV

Now, more in its context:


"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:19-21 niv

The creation fell when Adam fell. Thorns and thistles appeared AFTER Adam fell, not before. Animals were not ferocious and snakes poisonous until after Adam fell. The entire creation is awaiting the revealing of the resurrection of the church, so the creation can be transformed into a glorious environment. Hence, the New Heavens and Earth.

What you quoted has nothing to do with man being a slave to not believing. It has to do with the environment that we now find ourselves. One of frustration (no matter how beautiful the scene may be) as to make man dependent upon seeking the Lord for their freedom!

2 Corinthians 3:17

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." KJV

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." NIV

Man chooses his master. He is either slave to the cosmic system of Satan... Or, he makes himself a slave to Liberty (ironic).

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ." Joshua 24:15 niv

He who chooses false doctrine, makes himself a slave to the one who produced it.

Grace in Truth.... GeneZ

Hi there GeneZ.....the word mataiotes which means devoid of truth and encompasses perverseness & depravity, rooted in Mataios which is devoid of truth/ useless, and of no purpose; appropriately translated as decay/ imperfection/ futility/ bondage, slavery/ vanity/ emptiness/ under the power of change, and as Dr. Wm. Barclay translates....

For the whole created universe eagerly and expectantly awaits the day when God will show who His sons are. For the whole created universe was involved in a process of meaningless frustration, not of its own choice, but by the decree of God who did so subject it.

And so, GeneZ, our Father declares He has subjected His creation to mataiotes, "not willingly", or, "not by any choice of its own", but by His sovereign and glorious will declaring ''in the end the whole of created life shall be delivered from its slavery to death" or, "rescued from the bondage of decay/ shackles of mortality, into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Delivered= Eleutheroo=

To make free from the yoke of slavery.

To set at liberty from the dominion of sin.

Eleutheroo Rooted In Douleia

Douleia=

Slavery/ bondage/ condition of a slave.

[move]The whole of created life shall be set free from the yoke of slavery and the dominion of sin by the One who has so subjected the same in elpis.[/move]

"In Hope"= Epi Elpis=

Joyful & confident expectation of eternal salvation.

On, in, and having elpis, in the Author of elpis, the Foundation of elpis.

 

[FineLinen]

The creation fell when Adam fell. Thorns and thistles appeared AFTER Adam fell, not before. Animals were not ferocious and snakes poisonous until after Adam fell. The entire creation is awaiting the revealing of the resurrection of the church, so the creation can be transformed into a glorious environment. Hence, the New Heavens and Earth.

What you quoted has nothing to do with man being a slave to not believing. It has to do with the environment that we now find ourselves.

Actually, my friend, it has everything to do with the fall of our Father's creation into slavery by the disobedience of one single act of disobedience.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon the mass of mankind(the pas) to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon the mass of mankind (the pas) unto justification of life.

And St. Paul continues.....

For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners. so by the obedience of One shall polus be made righteous.

Both sides of the equation are equal, whether it is the polus or the pas! In fact: in the Lord Lesous Christos, the salvation of Jehovah, the response to the results of Adam one are superabundant, reaching as far as the curse is found. His transcendant glory described as "all the more" and "much more then", reaches beyond the banks into words in the Koine that speak of beyond, beyond in the Last Adam, the Lord Lesous Christos!

"Far more exceeding"=

Throwing beyond.

Beyond measure/ exceeding.

Superior/ excellent/ pre-eminent.

[move]Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin--of life victorious over ever form of death--of God triumphing over evil.[/move]

 

[Crispie]

I dont even want to try to think of how many times Jesus said the unbelievers will be
weeping and gnashing there teeth...


Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 13 In context: Matthew 13:41-43)

 

[GenemZ]

Hi there GeneZ.....the word mataiotes which means devoid of truth and encompasses perverseness & deparavity, rooted in Mataios which is devoid of truth/ useless, and of no purpose, appropriately translated as decay/ imperfection/ futility/ bondage, slavery/ vanity/ emptiness/ under the power of change, and as Dr. Wm. Barclay translates....

Where did you get your translation from? The one you used to say all creation is in slavery? I could not find it.

Thanks... GeneZ

 

[john14_20]

HI GeneZ

Pagan mythology believed in gods. Should we therefore, reject God? Certain pagan religions believed in an after life. Should we also reject that?

I simply stated that the literal view of hell has it's origin's in pagan mythology so we could see where it came from. Should we reject God? NO! But we should reject thier gods! Should we reject the after life? NO! But we should reject thier understanding of it. Should we reject hell? NO! But we should reject thier version of hell.

Just because something is a popular belief, does that make it right?

No way! I reject a ton of what the church popularly believes.

I was not suggesting either of the views were accurate. I was just saying that annihilationism was popular in reference to an earlier post by zona.

I reject both the popularly held views.

The literal view of hell can be seen to be false with some serious exegesis and the annihilation view, IMO, denies the work of Christ.

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[john14_20]

I dont even want to try to think of how many times Jesus said the unbelievers will be
weeping and gnashing there teeth...


Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 13 In context: Matthew 13:41-43)

Exegesis, Crispie, exegesis

 

[GenemZ]

HI GeneZ


I simply stated that the literal view of hell has it's origin's in pagan mythology so we could see where it came from. Should we reject God? NO! But we should reject thier gods! Should we reject the after life? NO! But we should reject thier understanding of it. Should we reject hell? NO! But we should reject thier version of hell.

Something you need to possibly take a look at, as to why the pagan religions may have an accurate understanding of Hell.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41 niv

Satan and his angels were well aware of what awaits them.... It has been prepared for them, not originally for man.

"When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" Matthew 8:28-29 niv

As you can see, Satan and his angels understand Hell, very well! Pagan religions have their source in demonic activity. Hell is something demons could teach accurately and yet not lead others towards the true God.

That may explain why they got Hell right. That is, if they speak of the same Hell. Which pagan religions do you refer to?

Grace and peace, GeneZ