Doctrine of Hell

[GenemZ]

Orthodoxy: You posted on #16

There is no judgement of our heavenly Father that is not bathed in mercy, and no mercy apart from judgement. "No mercy only correct judgement" is nonsense!

[move]For His mercy endureth forever, for His mercy endureth forever, for His mercy endureth forever.[/move]

"....and mercy triumphs over judgement."

Justice -George MacDonald-

Now is the time for mercy. Now is the time. When we face the final judgement(unbeliever) or evaluation (believer), what we will see will be the results of how we received (or rejected) and had given(or refused to give) mercy while in time. Today we are in a body of corruption. We need mercy! When we appear before the Lord he will be evaluating our life in this body. If we lived by Truth, or chose what is false. No more mercy, just evaluation as to "what is."

Evaluation of believers will be reality... no more mercy.

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 niv

Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[Zona]

Did you know that there is NO Greek or Hebrew word for eternity in the Bible?

Would this be close?

NT:166
aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); from NT:165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well)

KJV - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
​

 

[FineLinen]

What I mean to say is there will be no chance to change your position, judgement will be final at that point... God will take whatever we throw at him until that point (the last day), and then it's too late. God's mecry is for us now, among the living, we make our own bed... once we leave this life our opportunity to accept mercy is gone..

Forgive me...

That is exciting information my friend! Evidently, then, our Fathers nature is not unchanging; His mercy and love is encased in limits like His forgiveness expressed in the Monogenes Son as 70X7.

[move]But God, in His abundant compassion because of His intense love, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened.....[/move]

By the way, Orthodoxy, I will forgive you again, but there is a limit to my endurance. Aren't you glad our Father is the same?

 

[G4m]

Would this be close?

NT:166


aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); from NT:165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well)

KJV - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


​

126 aidios {ah-id'-ee-os}


from 104; TDNT - 1:168,25; adj

AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2

1) eternal, everlasting

For Synonyms see entry 5801

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

That is exciting information my friend! Evidently, then, our Fathers nature is not unchanging; His mercy and love is encased in limits like His forgiveness expressed in the Monogenes Son as 70X7.

[move]But God, in His abundant compassion because of His intense love, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened.....[/move]

By the way, Orthodoxy, I will forgive you again, but there is a limit to my endurance. Aren't you glad our Father is the same?

What are you saying my friend? Do you believe that at the final judgement you will be able to explain your "goat hair" and join the sheep?

Forgive me...

 

[FineLinen]

What are you saying my friend? Do you believe that at the final judgement you will be able to explain your "goat hair" and join the sheep?

Forgive me...

Greetings again Orthodoxy....what I am attempting to disclose, is that our Heavenly Father has instructed us to forgive our enemies 70X7. He does that because that is His nature: forgiveness bathed in rectitude and mercy. The judgement of our Father is always bathed in mercy and love, from which justice flows accordingly. The words very great/ exceeding/ plenteous/ more numerous than, and abounding, all speak of the Hebrew word "rab", whose equivalent is polus, in the Koine..."His abundant/polus mercy." Our Lord is good, and His mercy endureth forever, (present continuous progressive tense.) The execution of judgment in the Holy One is bathed in mercy and compassion. He retains not anger forever because He "delighteth in mercy", and to that end expresses Himself as the Father of all fathers.

In answer to your goat hair comment, let me ask you to define what the Saviour of the holos kosmos declares is the basis on which goats & sheep are separated?

[move]"God will seek us--how long? Until He finds us. And when He's found the last little shriveling rebellious soul and has depopulated hell, then death will be swallowed up in victory and Christ will turn all things to the Father that He may be all in all. Then every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." [/move]

- Dr. Clarence Jordan-

Founder of the Koinonia Community

Author Of The Cotton Page Gospels

Habitat For Humanity

http://www.habitat.org/newsroom/1999archive/insitedoc003949.htm

http://www.extramile.us/honorees/fuller.html

 

[FineLinen]

Would this be close?

NT:166




aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); from NT:165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well)

KJV - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).




​

No, my friend; it would not be close!




Romans 16:25, 26

....the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept secret since the world began, but now made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made know to all nations for the obedience of faith.

"Since the world began"

Began= Aionios

"according to the commandment of the Aionios Theos"

2 Timothy 1:9

Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

"Before the world began..."

Before= Pro= A primary preposition

Began= Aionios

Which was given to us pro aionios/ before aionios.

Titus 1:2

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

Promised= epaggello -#1861

Before= Pro -#4253

World= Aionios -#166 from #165

Began= Chronos (time that is either long or short) -#5550

"In hope of aionios zoe, which Theos, that cannot lie, promised pro aionios."


http://www.timebombers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2060

 

[FineLinen]

Now is the time for mercy. Now is the time. When we face the final judgement(unbeliever) or evaluation (believer), what we will see will be the results of how we received (or rejected) and had given(or refused to give) mercy while in time. Today we are in a body of corruption. We need mercy! When we appear before the Lord he will be evaluating our life in this body. If we lived by Truth, or chose what is false. No more mercy, just evaluation as to "what is."

Evaluation of believers will be reality... no more mercy.

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 niv

Grace in peace, GeneZ

Hi there Gene....What is the final result of the judgement by the Pur/Fire of God? The Fire manifests the "quality of each mans work." That which is of the quality of fire survives, what is not is consumed. Yes, "he will suffer loss", but can you complete the scripture for us?

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall_________________________________________?


[move]We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. "No man can come to me, except the Father...draw him." This prevenient drawing takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming. -A. W. Tozer-[/move]

 

[GenemZ]

Hi there Gene....What is the final result of the judgement by the Pur/Fire of God? The Fire manifests the "quality of each mans work." That which is of the quality of fire survives, what is not is consumed. Yes, "he will suffer loss", but can you complete the scripture for us?

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall_________________________________________?

"Be saved!"

That was written to the Church, not the entire world! 1 Corinthians 3, starts out with....

"Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? " 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 niv

This speaks only to believers! Now, read the beginning of what you had me complete.

It says... "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

This passage speaks of not being able to lose one's salvation. It does not speak of universal salvation for all.

It speaks about those who have entered into salvation by believing in Jesus Christ. The fire our works are tested by is not the Lake of Fire.


Grace and patience, GeneZ

 

[wobbly]

Does anyone else think this would be easier if we split the discussion of salcation and hell into separate threads? It would make it easier to follow.

As far as hell goes, I've noticed that Isaiah has a lot to say about Gods judgement and fire. And I think that the this would have been influential in the understanding of the people hearing Jesus and the other apostles talk about judgement and fire. So how does Isaiah use these concepts and how would the hearers of Jesus and the apostles have understood what they were saying.

A couple of quotes from Isaiah :

Is 66: 24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For ntheir worm shall not die, otheir fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”​

#_ftn1 #_ftnref1The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001. Wheaton: Good News Publishers.

This is a passage that Jesus quotes in Mark 9 44 ... what does he mean here? I note that Isaiah is talking about dead bodies and not conscious souls. How much of this does Jesus include without saying it? And what does Isaiah and mean by "their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched". How would this have informed Jesus hearers understanding?

Another passage in Isaiah is from ch 34

8 g For the Lord has a day of vengeance,​

a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.​

9 h And the streams of Edom1 shall be turned into pitch,​

and her soil into sulfur;​

her land shall become burning pitch.​

10 Night and day iit shall not be quenched;​

j its smoke shall go up forever.​

#_ftn1 #_ftnref1The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001. Wheaton: Good News Publishers.

It sounds like its going to be complete devestation for ever doesn't it. But what about the following verses:

k From generation to generation it shall lie waste;​

none shall pass through it forever and ever.​

11 l But the hawk and the porcupine2 shall possess it,​

the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.​

m He shall stretch the line of nconfusion3 over it,​

and the plumb line of emptiness.​

12 Its nobles—there is no one there to call it a kingdom,​

and all its princes shall be nothing.​

13 o Thorns shall grow over its strongholds,​

nettles and thistles in its fortresses.​

It shall be the haunt of pjackals,​

an abode for ostriches.4​

14 q And wild animals shall meet with hyenas;​

the wild goat shall cry to his fellow;​

indeed, there the night bird5 settles​

and finds for herself a resting place.​

#_ftn1 #_ftnref1The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001. Wheaton: Good News Publishers.









The land is still habitable by animals, so its not continually burning its just been laid waste.

I think that Isaiah is using the concept of never-ending punishment to signify the copmpleteness and finality of the pusishment. What do you think and how does that inform the understanding of the quotes for the people that would ave heard them?


Martin

 

[FineLinen]

"Be saved!"

That was written to the Church, not the entire world! 1 Corinthians 3, starts out with....

"Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? " 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 niv

This speaks only to believers! Now, read the beginning of what you had me complete.

It says... "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

This passage speaks of not being able to lose one's salvation. It does not speak of universal salvation for all.

It speaks about those who have entered into salvation by believing in Jesus Christ. The fire our works are tested by is not the Lake of Fire.

Grace and patience, GeneZ

Hi there GeneZ...Fire is the expression of the Consuming One, whose essence is fire. Every appearance of the Magnificent One is in fire enveloping itself. His throne is a blaze of flames, and the wheels of His throne, burning fire. And out of His throne flows the Katharos River, described by the prophet Daniel as a river of fire streaming and issuing forth from His presence. The fire that salts every/pas man, is the same Pur/fire that tries every man and "every man's work." You will find that hekastos means each and every, and like pas, radically means all. Hekastos is used over and over in the Sacred Words in this exact context.

Hekastos/every one of us shall give account of himself to God. -Rom. 14:12

"....the Son of man...shall reward hekastos/ every man according to his works."

...who will render to every man/ hekastos according to his deeds.

Rather than speaking to believers only; the Lord tries every man and every man's work by the fire/pur of His Presence. Our God as the consuming fire (our God is a consuming fire), and the Lake that burns with Theion, rooted in Theos, is exactly the same in essence and glory!

The foundation of our Father's purposes is in the Son of His love, through whom He created the whole universe, and to whom He has ordained all creation shall ultimately belong in the grand consummation of the ages (the dispensation of the fulness of times.) You may surmise that the foundation that no one can lay other than the one already laid by the Lord Lesous Christos, is speaking of losing one's salvation, but alas, my friend, such a "quality" of salvation that can be lost, needs to be!

This passage speaks of not being able to lose one's salvation. It does not speak of universal salvation for all.

Actually, GeneZ, this passage speaks of neither!

 

[FineLinen]

Hi there Martin: There is no such animal as "never-ending punishment"!

I think that Isaiah is using the concept of never-ending punishment to signify the copmpleteness and finality of the pusishment. What do you think and how does that inform the understanding of the quotes for the people that would ave heard them?

The Lord Lesous Christos speaks of aionial kolasis which is punishment that has purpose involved, not punishment that is an end in itself. Kolasis means to be corrected; and is rooted in kolazo involving the working of curbing, checking and restraining by way of punishment. Kolazo encompasses pruning as well as punishment that improves the chastised.

 

[GenemZ]

Does anyone else think this would be easier if we split the discussion of salcation and hell into separate threads? It would make it easier to follow.

As far as hell goes, I've noticed that Isaiah has a lot to say about Gods judgement and fire. And I think that the this would have been influential in the understanding of the people hearing Jesus and the other apostles talk about judgement and fire. So how does Isaiah use these concepts and how would the hearers of Jesus and the apostles have understood what they were saying.

A couple of quotes from Isaiah :


Another passage in Isaiah is from ch 34

8 g For the Lord has a day of vengeance,​

a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.​

9 h And the streams of Edom1 shall be turned into pitch,​

and her soil into sulfur;​

her land shall become burning pitch.​

10 Night and day iit shall not be quenched;​

j its smoke shall go up forever.​

#_ftn1 #_ftnref1The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001. Wheaton: Good News Publishers.

It sounds like its going to be complete devestation for ever doesn't it. But what about the following verses:

The Day of Vengance is not about Hell. Its about vengance on God's enemies. If you want to grab every fire passage to make it Hell, then Tongues of Fire must have been Hell for its hearers who did not like what was being said?

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[FineLinen]

The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgement to be punished. -2 Peter 2:9-

Punishment=Kolasis

Kolasis=

Correction.

Punishment.

Penalty.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2851&version=kjv

Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo

Kolazo=

1. To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

2. To curb, check, restrain.

3. To chastise. To correct. Punishment .

4. To cause to be punished.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2849&version=kjv

Correction=

Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.

Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve, or reform, the person punished.

Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.

Treatment of a specific defect.

The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.

A rebuke for making a mistake.

The act of punishing.

Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something, or the indicating of errors in something.

The act, or process, of correcting.

Something that is substituted, or proposed, for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.

Amendation.

Rectification.

Rectification=

To set right. To correct.

To purify.

To correct by removing errors.

To adjust.

A quantity applied by way of correcting.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted, or proposed, for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Amendation.

To correct something, or make something, right.

The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.

To correct by calculation or adjustment.

To adjust.

To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.

The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.

[move]We speak instead, a Divine philosophy in the hidden mystery which God ordained before the ages for our rectification, which none of the leaders of this age recognized; for if they had recognised, they would not have crucified the Master of the rectification..."[/move]

 

[JohnnyV]

This is an interesting thread as I have just finished reading a book by Mary K. Baxter called 'A Divine Revelation of Hell, Time is Running Out'. The premise is: For 40 days the author was visited at night by Jesus and taken to Hell so that she could share her vision with Believers and unbelievers. Her description of hell was very vivid and disturbing.
What I got out of this book is that Hell, and the punishments therein are eternal, ongoing forever. There were people in Hell that you would not expect to be there. It was a very thought provoking. Gave me a new perspective on what I had been taught about Hell.
All I know is that I do not want to go to hell for any reason, I want to spend my eternity with Jesus, but I do want to keep as many people as I can from going to Hell!!

 

[GenemZ]

All I know is that I do not want to go to hell for any reason, I want to spend my eternity with Jesus, but I do want to keep as many people as I can from going to Hell!!

I think we all need to hear the following....

We can not get anyone who God knows is going to Hell, from going to Hell. Can we do a better job than God in saving souls? Do you think that if you were not born and alive to witness to others, that certain people would be in Hell? Salvation is of the Lord.

We are mere billboards in life that God uses to have others read, so his message that he has been working on their heart will be made manifest for them to see. We save no one.

If I were not born, God could have used a tract printed in 1950, that was stuck in a book in a library for over 50 years to save someone today. No one is going to Heaven because we are alive, and no one is going to Hell because some are not alive.

Since God controls when each one of is to be born, he can guarantee he will have his "billboards" around in each generation for others to read. He has reserved for Himself 144,000 witnesses that he decreed will be alive during the Tribulation. They will not save anyone. They will be an instrument of God's, as he saves others.

Jesus was a complete glorification of the Father before men. Yet, many rejected Him. What is glorification of Christ? Getting many saved by our witness? It may well be that God has someone glorifying Christ to witness to a generation that all reject salvation (Noah). I have come to see glorifying Christ as having a correct understanding of the Lord, and a minimal amount of false ideas about God. That our witness will not win someone from Hell who is determined to reject Salvation. But, glorification means that when it comes time for their final judgement, that they will not be able to point to me and use me as an excuse for rejecting the Lord because I misrepresented the Lord to them. They may even say I angered them because I refused to play their games with God, and leveled with them in a way that made them feel arrogant and anger towards the Truth. That if I only took another approach (to please their flesh) that I could have won them over (you attract more flies with honey than vinegar, but who wants to attract flies?)

Stephen who was filled with wisdom and the Spirit, had a faithful witness. They hated his words. They stoned him to death. Yet, he glorified Christ, and none of them got saved by his witness that day.

We do not keep people from Hell. We can only keep ourselves from error, and expose error where it may be. To be a true witness to the Truth is what we have been called for. To think we can keep someone from Heaven is arrogance to think. As if God is incompetent to save.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 niv

Jesus was the PERFECT witness to salvation. Yet.......

"He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him." John 6:65-66 niv

The perfect witness left them without excuse before God. They did not get saved. We have been called to be a faithful witness, not to be the reason for others to be in Heaven. That's God's job.

"Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ." Galatians 1:10 niv

Some we will please because God has drawn them. His salvation is completed. Others, no matter how nice we are. No matter how much we know to refute them. They will not get saved. Our calling is to grown in grace and knowledge. Get understanding! Do not look at man to see how well you are doing. Do not learn "witnessing formulas" taught by legalistic men. Learn Truth. Walk in the Spirit. Those who will believe, will believe. Those who will not, will not. We (myself, included) save no one. Salvation is of the Lord! We are only witnesses to the truth, if we do not refuse truth. The Lord is the Truth. The Father draws men to Christ. Not us. We are only the welcoming comittee.


Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[FineLinen]

This is an interesting thread as I have just finished reading a book by Mary K. Baxter called 'A Divine Revelation of Hell, Time is Running Out'. The premise is: For 40 days the author was visited at night by Jesus and taken to Hell so that she could share her vision with Believers and unbelievers. Her description of hell was very vivid and disturbing.
What I got out of this book is that Hell, and the punishments therein are eternal, ongoing forever. There were people in Hell that you would not expect to be there. It was a very thought provoking. Gave me a new perspective on what I had been taught about Hell.
All I know is that I do not want to go to hell for any reason, I want to spend my eternity with Jesus, but I do want to keep as many people as I can from going to Hell!!

Hi there Johnny.

Evelyn Uyemura has written an excellent response to the "Divine" Revelation of hell by Mary Baxter.

http://www.tentmaker.org/reviews/ADivineRevelationofHellbyMaryKBaxter.html

Would you be prepared as one who refuses to save his life, exchange your place, "my eternity with Jesus", for one of the lost apollumi?

[move]"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only/monon, but also for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude."[/move]

Jesus Christ is the hilasmos for the sins of the holos kosmos!

 

[JohnnyV]

Im sorry but I do disagree. I do believe once you are in Hell it IS too late. I have learned through other christian sites not to debate though.
I guess I need to learn to keep my mouth shut about most topics, lol.
Everyone gets something different from their experiences and I did not intend to start something.

 

[JohnnyV]

PS
I also want to say I did not mean that I could save anyone. Only Jesus can save someone. All I meant was that I intend to let people know about Jesus and be an example of his Love and Mercy. I do not mean to mislead this post, I am no savior, I am only a believer.

 

[Zona]

FYI,

I have found out that there is name for the belief that unbelievers will cease to exist at some point: annihilationism or conditionalism. It comes in a few variations and there seems to be mature Christians making well thought arguements for both the pro and con side. (Of course, there are also some pretty poor - in reasoning and in tone -writings. This topic seems to prompt some Christians to get pretty ugly with other members of the Body of Christ. Sad.)

A Google search will bring up a number of sites worth looking at. Also, there is a book, "Two views of Hell: A biblical and theological dialog," InterVarsity Press, (2000), that looks like it may be a fair discussion from a Biblical perspective.