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Doctrine number 11

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Mudfrog

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Maybe we should look at it from another angle:

The options are accept God and spend eternity with Him, or don't and don't. He isn't the one doing the punishing, it those who choose to reject Him who punish themselves.
I am not sure I subscribe to this idea that we punish ourselves simply because it seems to be a device that we use to make God seem more acceptable; after all, we can't have a God with feelings other than love now can we? Why can't God punish? Why can't God be wrathful? Why can't God - who after all is holy and just as well as loving and compassionate - mete out judgment intentionally and deliberately?

I believe God judged Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 and gave them the promise of a saviour (verse 15). We all, as part of the human race, are under the same judgment. Who said that free will was anything other than freedom to accept that saviour?

The punishment from God for wilful disobedience stands. It's no good talking about us being innocent here because there is not one person who has ever lived who has never been wifully disobedient. Therefore God has every right to punish us. He has also provided the way out of judgment but if people refuse to accept that, justice still demands the sentence.

Please, let's not reduce God to a 'nice guy' who wouldn't harm anyone. That is not the God of the Bible.

As with Aslan in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, God is good but he's not safe.
 
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JoshuaCh1v9

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This is rather 'serious' for the Cybercorps isn't it?
Let me be a devil's advocate here:

God gave us freewill and therefore the choice of whether to accept him or not. Why then should he punish us for our choice?

We have been known to be serious from time to time.:)

I can't accept what you are saying.

Yes I agree that God gives us that choice, but He also makes plain the consequenses of choosing not to accept Him.
 
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catlover

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Well, the love of money is the root of all evil. But toi be quite honest I think your answer verges oin the political rather than the theological. .
God would care if some person in a third world country is being payed 50 cents a day to make a pair of shoes which sells for $100.+ in a "developed" Western world...
I don't think that is politics as much as seeing how Western countries find it easy to exploit economically oppressed people.
In my opinion I do'nt think He likes to see what He created trashed for the sake of capitalism.

While it may be true that those who worship the mighty dollar - leaders of corporations, etc - may be the ricjh men who find it hard to enter the kingdom of heaven - a bit like the camel and the eyee of a needle, you also have to say that a poor man who worships his weekly pay check and uses the money for evil or selfish ends has the same unredeemed heart as the rich man..

Possibly most poor people are surving and really don't have the time to worship a check.

Being poor is not a regenerating virtue.
Neither is wealth a sign of damnation.

And yes, there are planty of very rich people who have a conscience - just look at Bill Gates and Cliff Richard.

The majority of wealthy people have no idea what goes on with the poor. They are detached from reality and usually blame poor people for being poor.

Do you think the CEO of Shell Oil really cares about the atrocities in Sudan? A place where much of Shell oil comes from?
Not really.
 
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Mudfrog

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Wealth and Poverty are relative. If you earn £1000 a week and the guy down the street earns £100, you are rich, he is poor.

However, the guy down the street who earns £100 is far more wealthy than a homeless man with no coat, no bed and no food.

To the homeless person, the £100 a week guy is just as 'bad' as your corporation boss who doesn't care.

What is your solution to all this?
 
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sawitch

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I can't accept what you are saying.

Yes I agree that God gives us that choice, but He also makes plain the consequenses of choosing not to accept Him.

I love my children absolutely, as I am led to believe God loves us. If I were to say to my children 'That is the fire, it is hot and if you touch it you will be burned' and then I let them choose whether or not to touch it would that make me a loving mother? No, of course not. I would not give my children the choice because I do not want to see them burned.

IF God loves us why allow us to make choices that lead to 'eternal punishment'?:scratch:
 
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Mudfrog

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I love my children absolutely, as I am led to believe God loves us. If I were to say to my children 'That is the fire, it is hot and if you touch it you will be burned' and then I let them choose whether or not to touch it would that make me a loving mother? No, of course not. I would not give my children the choice because I do not want to see them burned.

IF God loves us why allow us to make choices that lead to 'eternal punishment'?:scratch:
Ah, but this analogy (one of many) is where the misunderstanding is!

There is no choice of 'touch and burned; don't touch and be safe'. The fact is we are too close to the fire already andn we are beginning to singe at the edges!

The choice that God gives is to stay near the fire (ie, as we are) or to move away. Those who refuse the Gospel will simply stay and be completely burned.

The other analogy that is relevant to this discussion is the punishment/freedom one. We are already tried and found guilty. We are already standing in the dock having been pronounced guilty of sin. All we are waiting for is the judge to give his verdict. The choice we are offered in this case is to accept our penalty or accept the offer of redemption, whereby we accept that he has taken our punishment. If we do not accept this, God will pronounce judgment upon us and we will suffer the wrath of his justice and holiness.
 
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JoshuaCh1v9

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I love my children absolutely, as I am led to believe God loves us. If I were to say to my children 'That is the fire, it is hot and if you touch it you will be burned' and then I let them choose whether or not to touch it would that make me a loving mother? No, of course not. I would not give my children the choice because I do not want to see them burned.

IF God loves us why allow us to make choices that lead to 'eternal punishment'?:scratch:

Ah, but this analogy (one of many) is where the misunderstanding is!

There is no choice of 'touch and burned; don't touch and be safe'. The fact is we are too close to the fire already andn we are beginning to singe at the edges!

The choice that God gives is to stay near the fire (ie, as we are) or to move away. Those who refuse the Gospel will simply stay and be completely burned.

The other analogy that is relevant to this discussion is the punishment/freedom one. We are already tried and found guilty. We are already standing in the dock having been pronounced guilty of sin. All we are waiting for is the judge to give his verdict. The choice we are offered in this case is to accept our penalty or accept the offer of redemption, whereby we accept that he has taken our punishment. If we do not accept this, God will pronounce judgment upon us and we will suffer the wrath of his justice and holiness.

I'm kinda with the Major on this one again

I see where you are coming from Pat, but the situation is not the same as with God and His children. Your analogy was about safety and our responsibilities as parents. This is about rules to the game.

A closer anology might be to say that we say to our children 'That action is wrong. As your parent, and being older and wiser than you, I make the rules. if you decide to do this thing I have told you not to do, then I will punish you. It will bring me no pleasure to do this, and it will not mean that I love you any the less, but if, knowing that there will be a consequence to doing this thing I tell you not to do, you still do it, then you know what the result will be'


As parents there comes a point where we have to allow our children to make choices that we know to be wrong. And even though we may try and advise otherwise, we know that they will make their own decisions on these matters.

And it hurts us to have to watch as our children make choices that ultimately bring them unhappiness.

It hurts God when we turn away from Him and refuse to follow His way, but we have been given the choice in the matter. Whats more, we are in no doubt as to the rewards to be had for making the right choice, and the loss to be experienced from making the wrong one.

Whats more, not only does God spell it out for us, He goes one massive step further and says 'Look, whatever you have done so far, no matter how many mistakes you have made, regardless od how much you have hurt me, I love you. I love you so much that if you make the right choice now, I will wipe the slate clean, and we can start again from scratch. All the punishment you had stacked up against you has been taken for you by my Son, Jesus. All you have to do is say Yes, and it's gone, all of it.'

As loving parenting goes, that's gonna take some beating. Of course the consequences of refusing to say Yes still remain, but right to the last second of our last minute of our last day, God is there, knocking at our hearts door, longing for us to open the door and accept Him.

Funnily enough, the other day I got a song in my head from nowhere (you know the type, it just pops in and you think 'Where on earth did that come from?'). It's an old Joystrings song (which isn't bad considering that I can't even remember the Joystrings). It was this.

Each man in his life time
Must choose his own way
And if he's a wise man
He will not delay.

So now
Which way are you going
And where will it end
Oh think what you're doing
Or else
You may spend your life in regret

You stand at the crossroads
But you have to choose
There's so much to gain
And so much to lose

So now
Which way are you going
And where will it end
Oh think what you're doing
Or else
You may spend your life in regret
 
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catlover

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Wealth and Poverty are relative. If you earn £1000 a week and the guy down the street earns £100, you are rich, he is poor.

However, the guy down the street who earns £100 is far more wealthy than a homeless man with no coat, no bed and no food.

To the homeless person, the £100 a week guy is just as 'bad' as your corporation boss who doesn't care.

What is your solution to all this?

The guy down the street hopefully doesn't exploit someone to eat and have basic needs.

What is a solution to this? First, get the homeless man off the street and feed him and give him a place to stay.

The CEO of Nike etc.there is no solution...Satan rules this world and the majority of multi national corporate CEO's are doing Satan's work.
 
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catlover

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I love my children absolutely, as I am led to believe God loves us. If I were to say to my children 'That is the fire, it is hot and if you touch it you will be burned' and then I let them choose whether or not to touch it would that make me a loving mother? No, of course not. I would not give my children the choice because I do not want to see them burned.

IF God loves us why allow us to make choices that lead to 'eternal punishment'?:scratch:

Well, we can protect a three year old from fire because we have absolute control over a toddler.

On the other hand a teenager has more freedom we dont' have control. So we hope while our children are out in the world they rely on what we tried to teach them.

Perhaps God sees us more as the near adult teenager. He has taught us the way we should go, we don't have someone completely controling us the way a toddler does.
 
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JoshuaCh1v9

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The guy down the street hopefully doesn't exploit someone to eat and have basic needs.

What is a solution to this? First, get the homeless man off the street and feed him and give him a place to stay.

The CEO of Nike etc.there is no solution...Satan rules this world and the majority of multi national corporate CEO's are doing Satan's work.


We could diversify this thread into this field, and I'd probably agree with quite a lot of what you say.

But it would derail this thread.

Why not start another thread so we can discuss this properly?:) :thumbsup:
 
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JoshuaCh1v9

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Well, we can protect a three year old from fire because we have absolute control over a toddler.

On the other hand a teenager has more freedom we dont' have control. So we hope while our children are out in the world they rely on what we tried to teach them.

Perhaps God sees us more as the near adult teenager. He has taught us the way we should go, we don't have someone completely controling us the way a toddler does.


:thumbsup: :amen:
 
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SallyAnn

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All those who have not chosen Jesus as their Saviour and....

Rev 21:8
But those who are full of fear and without faith, the unclean and takers of life, those who do the sins of the flesh, and those who make use of evil powers or who give worship to images, and all those who are false, will have their part in the sea of ever-burning fire which is the second death.
Rev 22:12
See, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man the outcome of his works.


 
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