Do your best to explain Romans 5

[συνείδησις]

How do they get it?

Like anyone does - through faith. If they don't have faith it is because they haven't made the right choices in life to learn of the father through the holy spirit. Or they have rejected him because they love the world more.

 

[redleghunter]

Another atonement view which I can agree with is the Christus Victor theory. It's very similar to the Ransom theory. Jesus came to win us back from satan -- no ransom, although scripture does state this ransom. I find these two theories to be very similar..

Christ’s Victory Over the Powers
According to the New Testament, the central thing Jesus did was drive out the “prince of this world” (Jn 12:31). He came to “destroy the works of the devil” (I Jn 3:8). He came to “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil” in order to “free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death” (Heb. 2:14-15). Jesus lived, died and rose again to establish a new reign that would ultimately “put all his enemies under his feet” (I Cor 15:25). Though “the strong man” was “fully armed,” one who was “stronger than he” had finally arrived who could attack and overpower him” (Lk 11:21-22). While the cosmic “thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy,” Jesus came into the world to vanquish the thief so that all “may have life and have it abundantly” (Jn 10:10). Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them…” (Col 2:15). In a word, Jesus came to end the cosmic war that had been raging from time immemorial and to set Satan’s captives free ( Lk 4:18; Eph 4:8).

source: http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-christus-victor-view-of-the-atonement/

Both are beautiful Biblical yet don't answer all the questions.

 

[112358]

So God is waiting for us to decide to accept Him? How does that work?

Umm, yes. Exactly the case. It works by one choosing to hear Him, believe Him, obey Him. It's really very simple.

 

[redleghunter]

How do you explain verse 40?

You cannot pick a few verses you like and leave out the entire concept that is in the N.T. which is that we are sinners and need salvation and God made a way for all those who desire it, to be saved by their own choice.

For Calvinism to be correct, we'd have to remove free will from human beings.

It's never been shown to me or anyone else WHERE and HOW this free will was taken away from us.

How much free will does a dead person have?

 

[ladodgers6]

In John 6:39, whom is Jesus talking about? John 6:40 "everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life". I believe that means everyone.

The Elect.

 

[ubicaritas]

"Many" as a Semitic expression usually means "all".

 

[ladodgers6]

I'm not at all wondering if I'm one of the elect ... never crossed my mind.

So you are asking if people have to qualify for it?

 

[redleghunter]

Umm, yes. Exactly the case. It works by one choosing to hear Him, believe Him, obey Him. It's really very simple.

Dead people can't choose.

 

[JesusYeshuaisLord]

So God is waiting for us to decide to accept Him? How does that work?

It sounds a lot like we tend to think that God is passive, lounging in a sofa waiting for these mere mortals to finally do something for Him. God is active, He doesn't just say 'hey do that' and wait comfortably for us to act. God is not a mythological God. The God of the bible is like Jesus, He comes to this earth and acts upon our lives. Even His inaction is an action.

 

[112358]

Dead people can't choose.

Correct. So we better choose while we're still alive.

 

[112358]

It sounds a lot like we tend to think that God is passive, lounging in a sofa waiting for these mere mortals to finally do something for Him. God is active, He doesn't just say 'hey do that' and wait comfortably for us to act. God is not a mythological God. The God of the bible is like Jesus, He comes to this earth and acts upon our lives. Even His inaction is an action.

Scriptural support please.

 

[RDKirk]

You then believe "all men" means all mankind? I know Calvinists would disagree...

Don't forget that this chapter is part of Paul's overall argument that gentiles can be saved just as Jews can be saved. By "all men" here Paul means "gentiles as well as Jews, no exception by nation."

 

[JesusYeshuaisLord]

Scriptural support please.

-Stories of Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Job. They all have God's actions and what we view as God not acting on anything.
-Genesis 50:20
-Ezekiel 16
-Romans 3:22-24
-The whole life of Jesus is God acting and sometimes 'not acting' (example the rich young ruler: Jesus told him what was and let him go, he didn't try and do more convincing)
- Frankly, the whole of the Bible

 

[bcbsr]

One chapter I've been reading maybe more than any other chapter in the Bible, that is Romans 5. Since it's a description of the atonement, it's a very central chapter of the Bible. Do your best to explain the whole, or just a part of Romans 5. Let us discuss this chapter and do our best to understand it.

Christ love,

P

Feel free to read my articles on those sections:
Romans 5:1-11
Romans 5:12-21

 

[redleghunter]

The opposition to God's grace in Christ towards His foreknown children is manifested as a spiritual battle of good versus evil. As for me, I simply believe what the scripture tells me about these things, without ADDING in stuff that is contrary to what so many scriptures actually tell us about these things. Things that for some reason, people do not like to hear, makes me wonder sometimes who and what they are really serving, Truth or a lie. the people who are in opposition just don't like to hear the whole truth. These words are written to the faithful saints.

Ephesians 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Yeah one cannot spin "Foreknown" as based on a human action in Ephesians 1. It's ironclad with chose before, predestined, adoption and the clincher....According to His purpose. Such, like Penal Substitution just does not meet post modern sensibilities and sensitivities.

Oh I forgot...According to His will. You are not making this stuff up Sir, it's taught in Holy Writ. Not to mention when we turn the page to Ephesians 2 we find out we are dead in our trespasses. The dead are just that dead meaning spiritually. The dead can't choose God or respond to His Grace in faith until they are "raised. Which once again is God's Grace:

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We were dead and God made us alive. Oh the richness of His Grace, what unfathomable Love. Saved by the unmerited Grace of God!

 

[mark kennedy]

Last link...Explaining all the theories of atonement...

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison

7 theories explained simply and in short paragraphs.

Interesting link, it should be understood that the word 'atonement', speaks of the time when the mercy seat was sprinkled with blood. It was once a year, it was just the High Priest,he would pass through the veil into the holy of holies. In the Tabranacle and original Temple God was physically present the, along with his glory. The Shekinah as it's called resembled a cloud or mist but it could get so intends it could drive the priests out of the Temple. When the wanted to kill Joshua it appeared above the Tabranacle and some how drove them back. When Moses asked to see God he said no man can see me and live but I will pass before you and my glory will pass before you. When he did it actually made his face glow and the children of Israel made him.wear a veil. The ark of the covenant was there are there were two angels depicted in hammered gold, the anointed cheribim. In the middle was the mercy seat were the blood was sprinkled.

The Jewish Christians went to Jerusalem every year for the holy convocations, Yum Kippur being the most sacred day of the year. When Paul talks to the about atonement that's what he is talking about.

 

[redleghunter]

He did die for all mankind but not all enter into his salvation, that is by faith and not all receive him by faith.

An important distinction.

 

[redleghunter]

In John 6:39, whom is Jesus talking about? John 6:40 "everyone who beholdsbeholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life". I believe that means everyone.

How so? Everyone who beholds and believes is not every one.

 

[redleghunter]

Romans 5:17
"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

"those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness"

I am of opinion that "those who" are the same as the "whoever" in John 3:16.

In other words "Every man, all men, everyone"

Then your position becomes Universalism

 

[redleghunter]

I think vs. 17 and 21 represent best the theme of the chapter, which is not original sin or election or calling. It is the contrast between sin and death, and righteousness and life through Christ, who made life and righteousness possible because of His sacrifice.

Twice the reference is made to grace reigning through righteousness. The chapter teaches us where God’s grace is to be found...through faith and through righteousness.

Begs the following questions.

1. How did that sin from Adam on get to us?

2. How does this Grace come to us or received?

3. Through whose or Whose righteousness?