Do your best to explain Romans 5

[mark kennedy]

You then believe "all men" means all mankind? I know Calvinists would disagree...

No we wouldn't disagree depending on what you mean. The sin of our first parents was passed on to all, the substitutionary atonement of Christ justifies all that will be saved. There are no exceptions except the children of perdition that suppress the truth of God that may known to them (Rom. 1:18-20), and the righteousness that is by faith (Rom. 3:21). Jesus in Romans 5 is the new Adam, in Adam all were made sinners, in Christ all are justified. The key here is 'in Christ'', Paul uses that expression or it's equivalent 35x in the first three chapters of Ephesians. By the tenth chapter Paul is sorting through objections to Israel being rejected, why some are saved and others lost. Quoting from the Law he say ask not who shall ascend into heaven or who will descend into hell. But the word is in your heart and in your mouth. What you need to know is how salvation works, the righteousness that is by grace through faith.

In Roman 4 the blessing of those who's sins are forgiven are described, in Romans 6 Paul tells us we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. If we died with Christ the same power that raised Christ through the glory of God can raise us to walk in newness of life.

The key is in Christ all are justified. We had no control over the choice of Adam and Eve but when they ate we did not fast. We had no choice to be in Adam, with salvation we are either in Christ or we are lost. The pivotal word in the book of Romans is justified, in another form translated righteousness and in another translated justice. That righteousness the makes God both just and justifier is provided in Christ, unto all and upon all that believe.

 

[συνείδησις]

John 6
37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me

So what about everyone else not given to Christ by God before they come, since the ones given by God to Christ come to Him, that leaves the others out. Obviously some are not given to Christ by God and because of that dont come to Christ, they do not believe in Him.

Don't forget that it is written that all who learn of the father come to Christ (John 6:45). No man can learn of the father apart from the teaching of the holy spirit. So those who come to Christ had hearkened to the spirit's teaching and followed it until such time as GOD opened their hearts to the understanding of Christ. And conversely, those who do not learn of the father do not come to Christ. Their choices.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Some of you anticalvanist 'haters' are so shallow in your thinking.

what do you think Jesus meant when He taught this,

John 6
37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me

So what about everyone else not given to Christ by God before they come, since the ones given by God to Christ come to Him, that leaves the others out. Obviously some are not given to Christ by God and because of that dont come to Christ, they do not believe in Him.

Which is why, Christ also then says this in regards to them that did not believe in Christ. So obviously God the Father does not grant all men to come to Christ, and that explains why people do not believe in Him.
John 6
65 And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

John 6:37 means what calvinists always say ALL means...

It doesn't mean ALL MEN...all those who the Father gives to Jesus...

It means ALL as whoever they may be:
Rich, Poor, Jews, Gentile, Harlots,,,

See. You have to be consistent with your hermeneutics.

 

[sdowney717]

You're literally adding to scripture. There is no place in that verse that says there is anybody that is not brought before Christ, no, in fact, the Lord is saying that he came down to do the will of the Father, which is for everyone that sees him to believe on him.

And everyone has seen him, but not everyone follows the will of God. (Titus 2:11). God's grace has appeared unto all men, because Jesus has drawn all men unto him (John 12:32).

Again, not all choose to receive him (John 1:12).

You accuse me, a calvinist of leaving out something, but in your very comment you leave out the first part of these significant verses you quote, why your not fit to judge me or anyone else, you got a big log in your eye.
Starting at v39, God's will is that of all HE has given Christ , Christ lose none. The emphasis is on God's giving to Christ His believers, which is why (secondary) a man believes at all, yet your twisting it deliberately being deceptive here...


John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[GodsGrace101]

Last link...Explaining all the theories of atonement...

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison

7 theories explained simply and in short paragraphs.

 

[zoidar]

Last link...Explaining all the theories of atonement...

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison

7 theories explained simply and in short paragraphs.

I understand the basics, but I need to understand it in full. Maybe I'm a bit thick headed? I am right now reading "Christus Victor" by Aulén, so I may understand it better next week.

 

[sdowney717]

No we wouldn't disagree depending on what you mean. The sin of our first parents was passed on to all, the substitutionary atonement of Christ justifies all that will be saved. There are no exceptions except the children of perdition that suppress the truth of God that may known to them (Rom. 1:18-20), and the righteousness that is by faith (Rom. 3:21). Jesus in Romans 5 is the new Adam, in Adam all were made sinners, in Christ all are justified. The key here is 'in Christ'', Paul uses that expression or it's equivalent 35x in the first three chapters of Ephesians. By the tenth chapter Paul is sorting through objections to Israel being rejected, why some are saved and others lost. Quoting from the Law he say ask not who shall ascend into heaven or who will descend into hell. But the word is in your heart and in your mouth. What you need to know is how salvation works, the righteousness that is by grace through faith.

In Roman 4 the blessing of those who's sins are forgiven are described, in Romans 6 Paul tells us we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. If we died with Christ the same power that raised Christ through the glory of God can raise us to walk in newness of life.

The key is in Christ all are justified. We had no control over the choice of Adam and Eve but when they ate we did not fast. We had no choice to be in Adam, with salvation we are either in Christ or we are lost. The pivotal word in the book of Romans is justified, in another form translated righteousness and in another translated justice. That righteousness the makes God both just and justifier is provided in Christ, unto all and upon all that believe.

I agree, justification to life for all men, is only for believers, so all does not mean all. Of course some do believe God will justify all men in Christ so then they believe no one is going to hell, or they go to hell and maybe get a second chance to believe later on. Stuff like this washes over some people's heads as they see only shallow things, not deep things. And they like to focus in and make verses conflict one with the other to prove their own personal agenda. But they just don't even recognize their own problem with their private interpretation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You accuse me, a calvinist of leaving out something, but in your very comment you leave out the first part of these significant verses you quote, why your not fit to judge me or anyone else, you got a big log in your eye.
Starting at v39, God's will is that of all HE has given Christ , Christ lose none. The emphasis is on God's giving to Christ His believers, which is why (secondary) a man believes at all, yet your twisting it deliberately being deceptive here...


John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

How do you explain verse 40?

You cannot pick a few verses you like and leave out the entire concept that is in the N.T. which is that we are sinners and need salvation and God made a way for all those who desire it, to be saved by their own choice.

For Calvinism to be correct, we'd have to remove free will from human beings.

It's never been shown to me or anyone else WHERE and HOW this free will was taken away from us.

 

[ladodgers6]

YLT of 5:18 is: "So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;"

Is it possible that Paul says: as one offence "it is" to condemnation for all men, one delcaration of righteous (Jesus crucifixion) "it is" "the means" to all men to justification of life?

I beg to differ. This is why John Murray tackles the Imputation of Adam's Sin to all his progeny. And is why Paul makes a contrast or comparison between Adam & Christ; ever wonder why Christ is called the second or Last Adam?

Let's look at verse 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I understand the basics, but I need to understand it in full. Maybe I'm a bit thick headed? I am right now reading "Christus Victor" by Aulén, so I may understand it better next week.

Some may find the links helpful.

 

[zoidar]

No we wouldn't disagree depending on what you mean. The sin of our first parents was passed on to all, the substitutionary atonement of Christ justifies all that will be saved. There are no exceptions except the children of perdition that suppress the truth of God that may known to them (Rom. 1:18-20), and the righteousness that is by faith (Rom. 3:21). Jesus in Romans 5 is the new Adam, in Adam all were made sinners, in Christ all are justified. The key here is 'in Christ'', Paul uses that expression or it's equivalent 35x in the first three chapters of Ephesians. By the tenth chapter Paul is sorting through objections to Israel being rejected, why some are saved and others lost. Quoting from the Law he say ask not who shall ascend into heaven or who will descend into hell. But the word is in your heart and in your mouth. What you need to know is how salvation works, the righteousness that is by grace through faith.

In Roman 4 the blessing of those who's sins are forgiven are described, in Romans 6 Paul tells us we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. If we died with Christ the same power that raised Christ through the glory of God can raise us to walk in newness of life.

The key is in Christ all are justified. We had no control over the choice of Adam and Eve but when they ate we did not fast. We had no choice to be in Adam, with salvation we are either in Christ or we are lost. The pivotal word in the book of Romans is justified, in another form translated righteousness and in another translated justice. That righteousness the makes God both just and justifier is provided in Christ, unto all and upon all that believe.

I agree that only those who believe will be justified, but still Christ cast out the Devil, right? That must surely mean he died for all mankind.

John 12:31
"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."

 

[Call me Nic]

You accuse me, a calvinist of leaving out something, but in your very comment you leave out the first part of these significant verses you quote, why your not fit to judge me or anyone else, you got a big log in your eye.
Starting at v39, God's will is that of all HE has given Christ , Christ lose none. The emphasis is on God's giving to Christ His believers, which is why (secondary) a man believes at all, yet your twisting it deliberately being deceptive here...


John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Here's the problem, if God really did have it the way he wanted in terms of who would be saved, according to 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4, all men would be saved. So, how can you sit there and say that God gives certain people unto Christ and others not?

And by the way, I accused you of adding to scripture, not leaving something out.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 8 teaches us of those who are justified to eternal life and also why they are justified. It begins with God foreknowing those who are His own people, before the person was born, God determined this by predestining them to believe because of His great love for them before their birth. which is why God predestined them. What are you God? This is something only God can know and determine beforehand, it is like prophecy, declaring things that are not yet happened as though they are. Anyone who dies unbelieving, God did not love with a great love and God did not foreknow or predestine them to be conformed to Christ.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Call me Nic]

Romans 8 teaches us of those who are justified to eternal life and also why they are justified. It begins with God foreknowing those who are His own people, before the person was born, God determined this by predestining them to believe because of His great love for them before their birth. which is why God predestined them. What are you God? This is something only God can know and determine beforehand, it is like prophecy, declaring things that are not yet happened as though they are. Anyone who dies unbelieving, God did not love with a great love and God did not foreknow or predestine them to be conformed to Christ.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Read the verse. He predestined those he foreknew to be conformed to the image of His Son.
God knew who would believe and be saved, and those he foreknew he predestined to inheritance. He did NOT predestine them to salvation itself, that's the choice of the person to receive or not. The verse simply just does not say anywhere in it that he "predestined them to be saved."

 

[zoidar]

I beg to differ. This is why John Murray tackles the Imputation of Adam's Sin to all his progeny. And is why Paul makes a contrast or comparison between Adam & Christ; ever wonder why Christ is called the second or Last Adam?

Let's look at verse 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

Yes, by Adam the many were made sinners, and by Christ the many will be made righteous. Doesn't that only say that those who believe in Christ will be righteous? Does it say anything about whom Jesus died for?

 

[sdowney717]

The opposition to God's grace in Christ towards His foreknown children is manifested as a spiritual battle of good versus evil. As for me, I simply believe what the scripture tells me about these things, without ADDING in stuff that is contrary to what so many scriptures actually tell us about these things. Things that for some reason, people do not like to hear, makes me wonder sometimes who and what they are really serving, Truth or a lie. the people who are in opposition just don't like to hear the whole truth. These words are written to the faithful saints.

Ephesians 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[zoidar]

The opposition to God's grace in Christ towards His foreknown children is manifested as a spiritual battle of good versus evil. As for me, I simply believe what the scripture tells me about these things, without ADDING in stuff that is contrary to what so many scriptures actually tell us about these things. Things that for some reason, people do not like to hear, makes me wonder sometimes who and what they are really serving, Truth or a lie. the people who are in opposition just don't like to hear the whole truth. These words are written to the faithful saints.

Ephesians 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Somehow Romans 5 lead us to Ephesians

 

[mark kennedy]

I agree, justification to life for all men, is only for believers, so all does not mean all. Of course some do believe God will justify all men in Christ so then they believe no one is going to hell, or they go to hell and maybe get a second chance to believe later on. Stuff like this washes over some people's heads as they see only shallow things, not deep things. And they like to focus in and make verses conflict one with the other to prove their own personal agenda. But they just don't even recognize their own problem with their private interpretation.

Like I said, the key here is, I'm Christ all are justified'. It's a recurring theme in Paul's writtings, like dead to sin alive to God. You have to take things like this in context, Paul isn't teaching universal salvation although he does teach universal sin, you have to watch for the qualifier. It also helps to consider his used of 'justified' throughout Romans and elsewhere. The only way to be I'm Christ' is by grace through faith. I just think it picular to choose Rom. 5 to discuss the atonement, the atonement is discussed in the third chapter.

 

[friend of]

Last link...Explaining all the theories of atonement...

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison

7 theories explained simply and in short paragraphs.

There are too many theories. Only one truth.

 

[mark kennedy]

I agree that only those who believe will be justified, but still Christ cast out the Devil, right? That must surely mean he died for all mankind.

John 12:31
"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."

He did die for all mankind but not all enter into his salvation, that is by faith and not all receive him by faith.