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Featured Do you want to be taken or left behind?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by RickReads, Oct 14, 2020.

  1. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    One of the threads I`ve been tracking has been making me think about Matthew 24:40-41. Do you want to be taken or left behind at this event?

    Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

    Is this the same event as Matthew 24:31

    "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    Note: I already have an opinion about this so be ready to share why you believe your answer is right and I would prefer hearing from those who believe Jesus is coming back to rule the world for awhile before he melts it.

    The question is my topic so let`s stay on it.
     
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  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Movies are better than the book. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Here's what I have saved on this:

    Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
    Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
    Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
    Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
    Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
    Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
    Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
    Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
    Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    Mat 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
    Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


    Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


    Noah enters the Ark first, then the flood comes. The one taken or accepted is Noah, the only one left is the "one left" which means to be rejected in the Greek. That applies to all who were left outside of the Ark. This is the same in another gospel where Lot is mentioned. The same thing happens, Lot is taken to safety just like Noah was and those left behind suffered wrath. This same order is repeated:



    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Just like the plague of hail in the OT, the one taken from the field was saved, the one left in the field was not.


    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Here we have good vs. bad...same order given.



    Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Here the good servant is rewarded, then the evil servant is dealt with. The good servant knew the lord was coming and worked but the evil servant did whatever he wanted because he didn't think the lord was coming soon.



    Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
    Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
    Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
    Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
    Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
    Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
    Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
    Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


    This one is obvious. The wise virgins were taken by the bridegroom, the unwise were left behind.



    Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods
    Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    Mat 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
    Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



    Same order again. The good are first, then the evil one is dealt with. Once you see this pattern, and study the Greek meaning of taken and left then who is who becomes very clear.


    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Yet again the same order. The good are rewarded first. They are accepted into the kingdom which is what paralambano¯ means. These are the one taken/accepted.




    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    These are the "one left" and they are even placed on the left hand which is the negative side in biblical examples.

    This is the end of the examples Christ gave and they all have in common the good dealt with first and the evil dealt with last. The one taken and one left are exactly the same in this regard.
     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Movies are better than the book. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Don't make the very common error of ignoring paralambano¯ and that it happens before the other is aphie¯mi which both means to be rejected and to leave to die. The one paralambano¯ survives because the word means to accept and bring someone near to you like a family member or a spouse. This matches what the rapture/harpazo accomplishes.

    The one taken is taken into the safety of the Ark and ends up in a safe place, 8 family members accepted. That's what paralambano¯ means. The ones left/aphie¯mi were not worthy of being on the Ark...and that's what aphie¯mi means, to reject and divorce and leave to die...the opposite of what paralambano¯ means.

    In all the examples Christ gives in the end of Matthew 24 and in 25, there is always two groups. The first are always the righteous who are saved, and the last group are the wicked who perish or suffer some negative fate. There is really no excuse to get it backwards in the one taken and one left. The order of events match all the other examples and the Greek definitions further prove that it is the one taken who is saved and the one left who is not.

    Happens first ..................................................................Happens last

    Good-Noah and family.....................................................Bad-the rest/drowned
    Good-Lot and his family......(Luke 17)...............................Bad-those left in the city
    Good-the one taken/accepted...........................................Bad-the one left/rejected
    Good-the goodman..........................................................Bad-the thief
    Good-the wise servant.....................................................Bad-the evil servant
    Good-the wise virgins......................................................Bad-the foolish virgins
    Good-the servants that increased the talents.....................Bad-the servant that did not have an increase
    Good-the sheep...............................................................Bad-the goats

    The saved people............................................................The punished people



    In these verses Christ will give multiple examples to teach the same exact thing. There is always a good one on one side and a bad one on the other. The good one is always shown in some type of action FIRST, and the bad one is always LAST.



    All on the left side represent the same group of people that are good, wise, profitable, accepted etc.
    All on the right side represent the same group of people that are bad, foolish, unprofitable, rejected etc.


    ***************************


    paralambano happens FIRST, then the non-paralambano become the aphie¯mi/LEFT, and then fire/water comes and AIRO's the LEFT people.


    The ONE TAKEN is always the one that leaves or is bodily TAKEN away from the situation. The wise virgins, Noah, Lot, those who are raptured, it's always the first thing that happens and it is always the saved/righteous/overcomers who are this first one taken.


    It is always then those left behind that are the ONE LEFT, the word also meaning to reject and to leave to die. That's the foolish virgins, the people of Noah's time, the people in Sodom, those not raptured. It is only these that can be said to have their lives "taken" from them because who was the ONE TAKEN and the ONE LEFT had already been established.
     
  4. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    What about Matthew 13 ?
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Movies are better than the book. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Can you be more specific?
     
  6. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    I will in a bit, hour or two.
     
  7. Llleopard

    Llleopard Active Member

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    I agreed with you up to the rapture. Those stories are all showing two groups of believers, not one of believers and one of unbelievers.
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Movies are better than the book. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    How can the story of Lot be about two groups of believers?
     
  9. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    Sorry about that, had to take a phone call. I agree; good first, bad second; sound principle.

    Raises my secondary question, Is this the same event as Matthew 24:31? I snuck that into the original post by leaving off the question mark.

    It`s the Matthew 13 scenario,

    36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

    37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    In this parable you want to be left behind. Matthew 24:31= 1st ressurection (good),
    Matthew 24:40-41= Removal of anti-christ followers (bad), Those left behind live on to see next age.
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Movies are better than the book. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Yes. Gathering has the same meaning as taken/paralambano.

    taken
    3880

    3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

    from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

    AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

    1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
    1a) an associate, a companion
    1b) metaph.
    1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
    1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
    2) to receive something transmitted
    2a) an office to be discharged
    2b) to receive with the mind
    2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
    tradition proceeds
    2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
    (used of disciples)

    "to take with one's self"
    "to join to one's self"
    "an associate"
    "a companion"
    "not to reject"




    The timeframe of this parable is the GWTJ/LOF judging not the second coming. During the rapture, the good are TAKEN up to the clouds and this is FIRST, while the unsaved are LEFT behind to suffer the vials of God's wrath.

    In Matthew 13 the order is reversed where the unsaved are gathered together and burned while the SAVED righteous are gathered to the barn LAST.

    That's why none of the Olivet discourse examples have the bad dealt with first and the saved last...it's always the saved first then the unsaved last at the second coming. At the GWTJ/LOF it's the opposite where the unsaved first then the saved after that.
     
  11. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    Luke 17 like Matthew 13 seems to teach that Matthew 24:40-41 is an event where you don`t want to be one who is taken.

    Luke 17
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
     
  12. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Option 3. I won't be here for that event and neither will any other current born again believer.
     
  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Movies are better than the book. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Keep in mind it is the day of the second coming when the TAKEN and LEFT happens and it is Jesus that takes or leaves people.

    Jesus will take his saints and angels to Armageddon where they will witness the killing of the beast's army and the birds that will eat there.

    Jesus isn't saying the one taken is taken to die. The definition of the word is to take someone to join you, like family members. It has nothing to do with taking someone's life ie: killing them.

    taken
    3880

    3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

    from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

    AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

    1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
    1a) an associate, a companion
    1b) metaph.
    1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
    1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
    2) to receive something transmitted
    2a) an office to be discharged
    2b) to receive with the mind
    2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
    tradition proceeds
    2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
    (used of disciples)

    "to take with one's self"
    "to join to one's self"
    "an associate"
    "a companion"
    "not to reject"

    This is the harpazo/rapture...same as the gathering mentioned in Matthew 24 that happens when Christ returns.
     
  14. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    That takes it back to Matthew 24:31= 1st resurrection and a different event then Matthew 24:40-41
     
  15. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    I don`t believe Jesus will touch ground at the first resurrection and there are other events that must take place before He makes his landing.


    1 Thessalonians 4

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
     
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  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Movies are better than the book. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I agree the resurrection and rapture take place before he stands on the Earth. Likely the battle at Armageddon also is over before that happens.

    I believe if one studies the Greek words and definitions for "one taken" "gather together" and "caught up together" then the similarities of those events will show they are speaking of the same event known as the Rapture.
     
  17. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    Here is another, Rev 19. In this passage we see a second coming, Jesus lands on the ground, and Jesus does a good bit of killing, birds get feed and it sounds like Luke 17:34. So here is yet another verse that points to Matthew 24:40-41 as a seperate event.

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
     
  18. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    I have been considering your point. I`m not seeing it rule out a two event scenario. In the Luke account the apostles didn`t know where the taken were going. When they asked Jesus his answer seems to be that they are taken away as bird food. Luke 17:37
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Movies are better than the book. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Or to witness it happen which is what will happen to the resurrected and raptured saints who are taken to witness the battle of Armageddon happen.
     
  20. RickReads

    RickReads Active Member

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    Here is another one, The second coming, no reason to assume 1st resurrection hasn`t already taken place. The surviving Israelies will not be taken,yet,all will be saved.


    Zachariah 14

    1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
     
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