Would it be proper (for you who are still under the law of the tithe) for me to deduct the amount I would give to, say, a needy family from the amount of my tithe check I give to the church? Or must I give it to the church?
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The main reason for my bringing up this distinction is that Christians are all a part of the priesthood . Since priests do not tithe , how does the tithe apply in any way , shape , or form to us ?
Sorry, Andrew, but this analogy doesn't hold up.Andrew said:Actually, the priests did tithe -- to Abraham.
Hebrews 7
9 A person might even say that Levi [the father of the priestly tribe] himself, who received tithes (the tenth), paid tithes through Abraham,
10 For he was still in the loins of his forefather [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham].
As Abraham tithed not under law but under grace to Melchizidek, the pre-incarnate Jesus, today, we do likewise not under law but under grace also to Jesus.
And when we tithe to Jesus, we proclaim that He lives.
8Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually].
Abraham tithed to the Melchizidek order. Jesus is a priest forever in the order of Melchizidek. So we tithe as Abraham did, not under the Levites order but under the Melchizedek order.
muffler dragon said:Sorry, Andrew, but this analogy doesn't hold up.
Abraham tithed from the spoils of war, and he also did not tithe with money. Unless you want to spiritualize this whole situation, you can't use it for support of a modern day tithe.
m.d.
As you might note, I have added to my previous post. I had to take a hiatus while I drove to work.Andrew said:Isnt that faulty reasoning? If Abraham had tithed with money, you'd still argue that the analogy doesnt line up becos Abraham tithed Shekels and not US dollars.
How about we look at the whole picture, because for you to rely on Abraham and Hebrews alone is a pretty weak foundation?
You, obviously, have not read anything that I have written. There is an abundance of it on this thread and in the CF in general.Andrew said:Would you say 2 witnesses is weak?
One of God's principle is this: When the root is holy, the batch is holy. Give God the 10% (whether its your time or money) and He sanctifies the rest.
We see this principle of the tithe even in the body. Give God your tongue, and he has your body. When your tongue is in his hands, his blesses the rest of your body.
Tithe the first hour of your day to God, and you find that the rest of the day is blessed and a breeze.
Ditto with your salary. Can you say that it is not God's will that I prosper and be in health?
Andrew said:Actually, the priests did tithe -- to Abraham.
Hebrews 7
9 A person might even say that Levi [the father of the priestly tribe] himself, who received tithes (the tenth), paid tithes through Abraham,
10 For he was still in the loins of his forefather [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham].
As Abraham tithed not under law but under grace to Melchizidek, the pre-incarnate Jesus, today, we do likewise not under law but under grace also to Jesus.
As the passage that you gave said ... *I* ( I don't know who you include in the "we" ) am considered to have already paid the tithe through Abraham .Andrew said:And when we tithe to Jesus, we proclaim that He lives.
8Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually].
Abraham tithed to the Melchizidek order. Jesus is a priest forever in the order of Melchizidek. So we tithe as Abraham did, not under the Levites order but under the Melchizedek order.
If one desired to go by the Scriptures ( aka the Law ) , a church is not a proper recipient of the tithe . Levites , yourself and family , poor , and orphanned are the only ones that I remember . But , I am not that well versed on the Law . I know that a church is not mentioned in the passages defining the tithe . Oh ... make sure that you pay in food if you do pay your "tithe" to a church . Mint ,dill , and cummin are preferred by one passage that I hear a lot .Jim B said:Would it be proper (for you who are still under the law of the tithe) for me to deduct the amount I would give to, say, a needy family from the amount of my “tithe” check I give to the church? Or must I give it to the church?
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I would say that the analogy doesn't hold up because there is no command in the Scriptures that states that anyone should tithe simply because Abraham did that one time . Abraham did other things as well that none are proposing that all should do . Some people want all to tithe because of Abraham's example but when going into detail about that same example to show that it is absurd , they call one's point absurd instead of getting that the method of the point is the same as the one being refuted .muffler dragon said:Sorry, Andrew, but this analogy doesn't hold up.
Abraham only tithed once, ...
Abraham only tithed once, ...
Have you also not read anything that I have written in the past as well as the other people who have posted. The majority of us have posted numerous Scriptures (IN CONTEXT) to show support for our position. As I might note in your post above, you posted no Scripture, you simply hinted at it.Father Rick said:Reading through this, it looks like several of you guys are taking one or two verses on tithes and not actually studying out the totality of teaching on tithing. Hopefully I can help a little here.
I studied under a Chassidic Rabbi... if you EVER have an question about any portion of the Old Testament, ask a Chassidic Rabbi.... not only can they tell you what it says, but many know the scriptures so well that if a straight pin is inserted through the pages of a scroll, if they know which letter it goes through on the first page, they can tell you every letter on every page it goes through....
First, tithing is not considered part of the 'Law' in that it was pre-existent to the Law. (Abraham and Melchizidek) Therefore all arguments that we are not 'under the Law' are moot.
Second, the major passage of teaching on what to do with that tithe is found in Deuteronomy 14:22-28. Someone listed this earlier. Notice in that passage, that the tithe was only given once every three years. For 2 out of 3 years, the tithe was set aside and then used to pay one's way to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feasts of Israel that every man had to attend three times a year. When you got to Jerusalem, you used the tithe to buy whatever food and drink you wanted to celebrate the Feasts (kind of like throwing a party in God's honor). For these 2 years, you were also required to make sure the poor and the Levite had been taken care of as well. In the third year, you had to pay your own way to Jerusalem and the tithe was put in the storehouse (managed by the Levites) to take care of the poor. This is the storehouse referred to in Malachi-- it had nothing to do with church in any way.
In addition to the tithe, each person paid a temple tax to care for the upkeep of the temple. This is in addition to various offerings. Offerings were of grain, bulls, etc, of which a portion were offered to God and the rest were kept by the priest and Levites to eat/live off of.
After the temple was destroyed, the rabbis tried to figure out what was the best way to keep the tithe since the years were messed up as to which year was 'the year of the tithe' and there were no longer storehouses to put it in. The solution they came up with-- which is still kept by some orthodox Jews today-- is this: The tithe is divided into thirds. One third goes to pay for trips to Jerusalem for the Feasts. One third goes to the poor and needy. One third goes to the Levites (yes there are still Levites today in Israel working to rebuild the temple).
In the New Testament, Jesus commended the Pharisees for paying tithes-- in other words Jesus told them it was right to do so-- even though He rebuked them for forgetting the 'weightier matter of the Law' such as love, etc. Jesus also said they should not stop paying tithes, but should add love to what they were doing.
So to sum all this up...
Should we pay tithes today? Tithing exists outside the Law and Jesus told the Pharisees they should continue to pay tithes, so I would say, 'Yes.'
Jim B. --Would it be right to take part of your tithes to give to the poor?-- that is what the storehouse Malachi was talking about was all about, so yes it would actually be the correct way to pay tithes.
which is still kept by some orthodox Jews today
Should we pay tithes today? Tithing exists outside the Law and Jesus told the Pharisees they should continue to pay tithe, so I would say, 'Yes'
I will interpret this statement as:Andrew said:I think I will let the poll speak for itself.
Where do you keep drawing this conclusion that we are going to discuss US currency in this issue? And how many times do you need to be told (and shown in Scripture) that the tithe was not money?Andrew said:another faulty logic. same type of argument as Abraham did not tithe US dollars so we don't have to tithe.
Andrew said:Father Rick,
Good post.
Just to add: We are splitting hairs and going into the nitty gritty specifics eg: 2 years, out of 3 years, grain or spoils and not US dollars, nett or gross.
In short, many of us are saying becos it was done this way and for this purpose, therefore it shld be done this way and or this purpose, otherwise it shouldnt be done or its redundant, blah blah blah.
We forget the whole spirit of tithing, which is worship unto a good God, acknowledging that He is the source of all our blessings and provision. All that we are blessed with comes from Him, and he's only asking for 10%, yet we are so nitty gritty and calculative abt it. Should I tithe on the gross or nett?
When we get the revelation of the goodness of God, and really believe He is the source of our blessings, tithing is no more a question.
The truth is, those who dont tithe simply can't part with THEIR money. And they can't stand it that others tithe becos they feel guilty abt it.