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Do you think it's Christian to own guns?

expos4ever

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And come to think of it, the whole "what would Jesus do" is such a stupid question in the first place. I strongly suggest we DO NOT use that as a benchmark for living.
And we know that all things work together for goodGod causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

Prithee, what would being "conformed to the image of the Son" mean if not to model your behavior after that of Jesus?
 
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supescritter

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And we know that all things work together for goodGod causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

Prithee, what would being "conformed to the image of the Son" mean if not to model your behavior after that of Jesus?

Major on the major, minor on the minor. Jesus is the Word - follow the Word - that's how you model your behavior to Jesus. This "what would Jesus do" is imagined nonsense that is extrinsic to the Word of God. You have to operate dangerously outside the Bible to maintain this mindset - you'd have to ask all these stupid questions that just. aren't. important. Would Jesus take an IT degree? Would Jesus buy a bottle in plastic, or in glass? It quickly becomes apocryphal in nature and becomes the basis of all legalism that we see creep into religions.

I once knew someone who prayed to God every step she took, and asked him inane questions like whether she should cross the road. What would Jesus do? Would Jesus cross the road at this very moment? This is flakey thinking and it is not supported by the Bible.

The Bible is clear about certain things, and not clear about other things. Don't sweat the stuff the Bible is not clear on. Focus on what the Bible IS clear on. Major on the major, and minor on the minor.
 
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expos4ever

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Major on the major, minor on the minor. Jesus is the Word - follow the Word - that's how you model your behavior to Jesus. This "what would Jesus do" is imagined nonsense that is extrinsic to the Word of God.
This sounds suspiciously like "I will choose those aspects of Jesus' behavior to follow that I like and choose to not model myself after him on the demanding stuff".

As Jesus stood before Pilate, he explained that even though His followers knew that He (Jesus) was in big trouble, they were not going to rescue Him by force.

Why not?

Jesus' answer is clear but uncomfortable for us: Obedient citizens of Jesus's new Kingdom do not model their behavior on the worldly behavior of using force, even to rescue a loved one.

Challenging words.
 
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supescritter

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This sounds suspiciously like "I will choose those aspects of Jesus' behavior to follow that I like and choose to not model myself after him on the demanding stuff".

You just chose to read what you wanted to read. I clearly stated that we should follow the Bible, not make up stuff that the Bible does not expound on. "What would Jesus do" is making stuff up - that is the dangerous thinking.

Read the last sentence of my post before yours. I said - "Focus on what the Bible IS clear on". So what you wrote is just wrong. Probably the result of following your biases, instead of comprehending the written word due to a lifetime of fanciful and fickle "what would Jesus do" thinking.

As for your story about Pilate: again the result of "what would Jesus do" thinking. Jesus was addressing Pilate because it was his mission to die for the sins of man. This is not what you're supposed to do, nor is it for me to do. This is extrapolation on your part of a specific message to Pilate that you imagine to be applicable to your own life. Again I say: don't make stuff up about what you think the Bible tells us to do.
 
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expos4ever

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You just chose to read what you wanted to read.
Do you have a special ability to read people's minds?

I clearly stated that we should follow the Bible, not make up stuff that the Bible does not expound on. "What would Jesus do" is making stuff up - that is the dangerous thinking.
If Jesus expounds a principle for living, we need to follow it. And I believe a good case can be made that Jesus would disapprove of weaponry, even for self-defence. And, yes, I know about "buy a sword" from Luke 22. I will be happy to address that text.

As for your story about Pilate: again the result of "what would Jesus do" thinking. Jesus was addressing Pilate because it was his mission to die for the sins of man.
While it is indeed tempting to see Jesus as arranging things so that he would die - if His followers rescue Him by force, He will escape His destiny on the cross - the actual text rules this out:

36Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

Jesus is clear: the reason His followers are not fighting is that they are citizens of Jesus's kingdom which "is not of this world" - that is, does not operate by worldly principles. And Jesus clearly believes that one way His Kingdom differs is that its citizens do not use force.

Nowhere does Jesus remotely imply that He is somehow orchestrating non-violence on the part of His followers to ensure that He goes to the cross.
 
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RDKirk

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Some people believe that it's not Christian to use technology. The Amish are known for this. I guess a strong case could even be made for this view. Technology can make us lazy and dependent upon it rather than on God for our well-being. But another person could see technology as simply another tool that we have at our disposal.

Actually, the Amish view is not to adapt things that don't clearly benefit their aim to lead Godly lives. Some things do in some ways--weather radio, for instance, but not entertainment radio. We can argue that the Amish take it too far, but there is something to be said about hesitating to grab every new thing that comes along, examining it to see whether it is actually beneficial and edifying, and eschewing it otherwise.
 
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RDKirk

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A person who owns a gun, even for defense, doesn't necessarily belong to the "gun culture", whatever that is. Some people see them as a hobby they really enjoy, if that's what you mean, and may own quite a few. Others might have just one for defense, while someone else has just a hunting rifle for that one time of the year they go hunting.

At what point would you personally see it as wrong for a Christian to own a gun?

At the point that the Lord clearly says to a man, "I want you to go to China and be a witness," and the man says, "They won't let me take my guns, so I won't go."

Or maybe it's just the Lord saying, "I want you to go to that particular church," and the man says, "That pastor doesn't let people carry a gun, so I'm not going."

I've heard too many gun owners say point blank (as it were) that they would not obey the Lord if it meant leaving their guns behind. Yet, they claim to be Christians.
 
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RDKirk

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Apart from those needing them for living - do you think people should own guns?
I cannot tie Jesus up with a gun-owner that has them for the sake of having them

I've said this before when this topic has been opened.

I am not adverse to self-defense--I have carried a weapon before, both in and out of uniform, and I expect to again in the near future. I've seen the bodies of men, women, and children, totaling hundreds, that I targeted. Saw a man running for his life, dashing into what he thought would be safety, not knowing that very building bore the mark of destruction that I painted on it.

I've been on a street in DC with a mugger's pistol poked into my kidney, and I've been in a jungle with a slew of AK-47s pointed at me. I've been shot at and, thank God, missed. That mugger poked his gun into my side and pulled the trigger--not realizing that he was pushing so hard into my side that he'd pushed the slide out of battery and jammed his own gun.

I have been though enough "stuff" in my life to understand that to be truly effective with a firearm in the cases American gun owners so blithely expect--situations in which one is always placed at tactical disadvantage at a moment and place of the assailant's choosing--takes an extreme amount of constant training and dedication.

This is more than police get and even more than most soldiers get because those people usually imitate their confrontations. Police and soldiers on duty will not be with their families deeply engrossed in an Avenger's movie, tossing back popcorn, when a terrorist suddenly stands up and opens fire into the auditorium.

To truly be ready for that kind of situation calls for "giving yourself to the gun." It means doing tactical training twice a week and constantly living in "condition yellow" whenever not actually asleep. It means evaluating every situation you are in as one in which you will potentially be attacked and evaluating every person you see and meet as someone you will potentially have to kill.

Otherwise, you're actually just fooling yourself..you're not truly ready for those situations and are really depending on the bad guy shooting someone else first to give you several seconds to come to your senses and think about what to do with your gun.

So now, if we take our mission on this earth to be one of evangelizing the gospel of Christ and giving witness to the love of Christ, then we are supposed to see every new person as a potential brother in Christ.

Is it possible to do all the constant training truly necessary to be proficient with a gun, to gain that constant ready-to-kill mindset, to look at each person as someone you may have to kill...and at the same time look at each person as a potential brother in Christ?

Can you give yourself to the gun and to the gospel at the same time and claim to be proficient at both? Or does proficiency in one or the other have to suffer?

Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways -- Proverb 3:31

On this particular issue of the compatibility of the Gospel with the gun, the life of Nate Saint gives me pause and instruction.

On a mission to evangelize a particularly violent South American Indian tribe--so violent they were on the verge of wiping themselves out--Nate Saint contemplated the choice of using a gun for self-defense made the decision: "I am prepared to meet my maker--they are not."

In the end, at the critical moment of killing or being killed--he chose not to defend himself and was killed. His son later took up that same mission and successfully evangelized the very man who had killed his father.

Declares the Lord: "I take no pleasure in the death of a wicked man; I would rather than he repent."-- Ezekiel 33

I may carry a gun, particularly if I am with my family, but I'm not going to give myself to it. Nor am I going to convince myself that there is ever anything "righteous" about killing an evil man, even if I should do so. Killing a "wicked man" is not a win for God, it is a tragedy for God...another soul lost. It is a win for Satan and reason for grief.
 
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malvina

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I've said this before when this topic has been opened.

I am not adverse to self-defense--I have carried a weapon before, both in and out of uniform, and I expect to again in the near future. I've seen the bodies of men, women, and children, totaling hundreds, that I targeted. Saw a man running for his life, dashing into what he thought would be safety, not knowing that very building bore the mark of destruction that I painted on it.

I've been on a street in DC with a mugger's pistol poked into my kidney, and I've been in a jungle with a slew of AK-47s pointed at me. I've been shot at and, thank God, missed. That mugger poked his gun into my side and pulled the trigger--not realizing that he was pushing so hard into my side that he'd pushed the slide out of battery and jammed his own gun.

I have been though enough "stuff" in my life to understand that to be truly effective with a firearm in the cases American gun owners so blithely expect--situations in which one is always placed at tactical disadvantage at a moment and place of the assailant's choosing--takes an extreme amount of constant training and dedication.

This is more than police get and even more than most soldiers get because those people usually imitate their confrontations. Police and soldiers on duty will not be with their families deeply engrossed in an Avenger's movie, tossing back popcorn, when a terrorist suddenly stands up and opens fire into the auditorium.

To truly be ready for that kind of situation calls for "giving yourself to the gun." It means doing tactical training twice a week and constantly living in "condition yellow" whenever not actually asleep. It means evaluating every situation you are in as one in which you will potentially be attacked and evaluating every person you see and meet as someone you will potentially have to kill.

Otherwise, you're actually just fooling yourself..you're not truly ready for those situations and are really depending on the bad guy shooting someone else first to give you several seconds to come to your senses and think about what to do with your gun.

So now, if we take our mission on this earth to be one of evangelizing the gospel of Christ and giving witness to the love of Christ, then we are supposed to see every new person as a potential brother in Christ.

Is it possible to do all the constant training truly necessary to be proficient with a gun, to gain that constant ready-to-kill mindset, to look at each person as someone you may have to kill...and at the same time look at each person as a potential brother in Christ?

Can you give yourself to the gun and to the gospel at the same time and claim to be proficient at both? Or does proficiency in one or the other have to suffer?

Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways -- Proverb 3:31

On this particular issue of the compatibility of the Gospel with the gun, the life of Nate Saint gives me pause and instruction.

On a mission to evangelize a particularly violent South American Indian tribe--so violent they were on the verge of wiping themselves out--Nate Saint contemplated the choice of using a gun for self-defense made the decision: "I am prepared to meet my maker--they are not."

In the end, at the critical moment of killing or being killed--he chose not to defend himself and was killed. His son later took up that same mission and successfully evangelized the very man who had killed his father.

Declares the Lord: "I take no pleasure in the death of a wicked man; I would rather than he repent."-- Ezekiel 33

I may carry a gun, particularly if I am with my family, but I'm not going to give myself to it. Nor am I going to convince myself that there is ever anything "righteous" about killing an evil man, even if I should do so. Killing a "wicked man" is not a win for God, it is a tragedy for God...another soul lost. It is a win for Satan and reason for grief
 
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malvina

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I've said this before when this topic has been opened.

I am not adverse to self-defense--I have carried a weapon before, both in and out of uniform, and I expect to again in the near future. I've seen the bodies of men, women, and children, totaling hundreds, that I targeted. Saw a man running for his life, dashing into what he thought would be safety, not knowing that very building bore the mark of destruction that I painted on it.

I've been on a street in DC with a mugger's pistol poked into my kidney, and I've been in a jungle with a slew of AK-47s pointed at me. I've been shot at and, thank God, missed. That mugger poked his gun into my side and pulled the trigger--not realizing that he was pushing so hard into my side that he'd pushed the slide out of battery and jammed his own gun.

I have been though enough "stuff" in my life to understand that to be truly effective with a firearm in the cases American gun owners so blithely expect--situations in which one is always placed at tactical disadvantage at a moment and place of the assailant's choosing--takes an extreme amount of constant training and dedication.

This is more than police get and even more than most soldiers get because those people usually imitate their confrontations. Police and soldiers on duty will not be with their families deeply engrossed in an Avenger's movie, tossing back popcorn, when a terrorist suddenly stands up and opens fire into the auditorium.

To truly be ready for that kind of situation calls for "giving yourself to the gun." It means doing tactical training twice a week and constantly living in "condition yellow" whenever not actually asleep. It means evaluating every situation you are in as one in which you will potentially be attacked and evaluating every person you see and meet as someone you will potentially have to kill.

Otherwise, you're actually just fooling yourself..you're not truly ready for those situations and are really depending on the bad guy shooting someone else first to give you several seconds to come to your senses and think about what to do with your gun.

So now, if we take our mission on this earth to be one of evangelizing the gospel of Christ and giving witness to the love of Christ, then we are supposed to see every new person as a potential brother in Christ.

Is it possible to do all the constant training truly necessary to be proficient with a gun, to gain that constant ready-to-kill mindset, to look at each person as someone you may have to kill...and at the same time look at each person as a potential brother in Christ?

Can you give yourself to the gun and to the gospel at the same time and claim to be proficient at both? Or does proficiency in one or the other have to suffer?

Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways -- Proverb 3:31

On this particular issue of the compatibility of the Gospel with the gun, the life of Nate Saint gives me pause and instruction.

On a mission to evangelize a particularly violent South American Indian tribe--so violent they were on the verge of wiping themselves out--Nate Saint contemplated the choice of using a gun for self-defense made the decision: "I am prepared to meet my maker--they are not."

In the end, at the critical moment of killing or being killed--he chose not to defend himself and was killed. His son later took up that same mission and successfully evangelized the very man who had killed his father.

Declares the Lord: "I take no pleasure in the death of a wicked man; I would rather than he repent."-- Ezekiel 33

I may carry a gun, particularly if I am with my family, but I'm not going to give myself to it. Nor am I going to convince myself that there is ever anything "righteous" about killing an evil man, even if I should do so. Killing a "wicked man" is not a win for God, it is a tragedy for God...another soul lost. It is a win for Satan and reason for grief.

trouble is - it's rarely the evil ones that get killed! it's the innocent ones - kids mainly! by an unbalanced person accessible to a gun and even if a kid intrudes first time! he can be shot lawfully. You can hardly call this a Christian law
 
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patrick jane

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Just responding to the OP - Yes. and I plan to get a hand gun and a shot gun, first ever. I think it's necessary today and I will take the conceal/carry classes and training. Criminals have guns no matter what the laws are.
 
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Mary7

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I've said this before when this topic has been opened.

I am not adverse to self-defense--I have carried a weapon before, both in and out of uniform, and I expect to again in the near future. I've seen the bodies of men, women, and children, totaling hundreds, that I targeted. Saw a man running for his life, dashing into what he thought would be safety, not knowing that very building bore the mark of destruction that I painted on it.

I've been on a street in DC with a mugger's pistol poked into my kidney, and I've been in a jungle with a slew of AK-47s pointed at me. I've been shot at and, thank God, missed. That mugger poked his gun into my side and pulled the trigger--not realizing that he was pushing so hard into my side that he'd pushed the slide out of battery and jammed his own gun.

I have been though enough "stuff" in my life to understand that to be truly effective with a firearm in the cases American gun owners so blithely expect--situations in which one is always placed at tactical disadvantage at a moment and place of the assailant's choosing--takes an extreme amount of constant training and dedication.

This is more than police get and even more than most soldiers get because those people usually imitate their confrontations. Police and soldiers on duty will not be with their families deeply engrossed in an Avenger's movie, tossing back popcorn, when a terrorist suddenly stands up and opens fire into the auditorium.

To truly be ready for that kind of situation calls for "giving yourself to the gun." It means doing tactical training twice a week and constantly living in "condition yellow" whenever not actually asleep. It means evaluating every situation you are in as one in which you will potentially be attacked and evaluating every person you see and meet as someone you will potentially have to kill.

Otherwise, you're actually just fooling yourself..you're not truly ready for those situations and are really depending on the bad guy shooting someone else first to give you several seconds to come to your senses and think about what to do with your gun.

So now, if we take our mission on this earth to be one of evangelizing the gospel of Christ and giving witness to the love of Christ, then we are supposed to see every new person as a potential brother in Christ.

Is it possible to do all the constant training truly necessary to be proficient with a gun, to gain that constant ready-to-kill mindset, to look at each person as someone you may have to kill...and at the same time look at each person as a potential brother in Christ?

Can you give yourself to the gun and to the gospel at the same time and claim to be proficient at both? Or does proficiency in one or the other have to suffer?

Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways -- Proverb 3:31

On this particular issue of the compatibility of the Gospel with the gun, the life of Nate Saint gives me pause and instruction.

On a mission to evangelize a particularly violent South American Indian tribe--so violent they were on the verge of wiping themselves out--Nate Saint contemplated the choice of using a gun for self-defense made the decision: "I am prepared to meet my maker--they are not."

In the end, at the critical moment of killing or being killed--he chose not to defend himself and was killed. His son later took up that same mission and successfully evangelized the very man who had killed his father.

Declares the Lord: "I take no pleasure in the death of a wicked man; I would rather than he repent."-- Ezekiel 33

I may carry a gun, particularly if I am with my family, but I'm not going to give myself to it. Nor am I going to convince myself that there is ever anything "righteous" about killing an evil man, even if I should do so. Killing a "wicked man" is not a win for God, it is a tragedy for God...another soul lost. It is a win for Satan and reason for grief.

That was really good.
 
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Aldebaran

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At the point that the Lord clearly says to a man, "I want you to go to China and be a witness," and the man says, "They won't let me take my guns, so I won't go."

Or maybe it's just the Lord saying, "I want you to go to that particular church," and the man says, "That pastor doesn't let people carry a gun, so I'm not going."

I've heard too many gun owners say point blank (as it were) that they would not obey the Lord if it meant leaving their guns behind. Yet, they claim to be Christians.

If a person clearly heard the Lord telling them to do something, but they refused because of a personal desire, then that would be idolitry (probably spelled that wrong). If I felt that the Lord was clearly telling me to move to another place, then I would think that His calling would be the overwhelming factor in my decision. I'm not always sure what people mean when they said the Lord called them to do something or led them to go somewhere. It might be their way of saying that circumstances piled up that made it obvious to them what the Lord wanted them to do.

But what you say you've heard Christians say about flat out refusing to obey what they knew the Lord wanted for them on the basis of having to leave their guns, then I can see a problem there.
 
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malvina

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So I would say it would be 'putting guns before the Lord'. I remember when I first became a Christian we had very good teachers for baby Christians. They went to a lot of trouble to make sure we had given up EVERYTHING to the Lord, or they said we would have problems with 'The Baptism of Fire' and I saw this many times. Too often one of us would try to hang on to something. It was explained we could never serve The Lord if we was holding something to ourselves - or be free Christians and this was totally right. I was hanging onto to vanity, I told them that by becoming a Christian I was scared I would become 'frumpy' as so many were in those days. I had to give that vanity up to the Lord and the freedom I experienced after was amazing.
I am quite sure that some of the Christian gun lobby are not giving their guns up to The Lord. He might not require ALL to do it but I'm sure He would some - it would depend on exactly HOW MUCH they want them - He wants us to want Him more than anything! and if they was walking with Him He would make this clear to them.
 
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So I would say it would be 'putting guns before the Lord'. I remember when I first became a Christian we had very good teachers for baby Christians. They went to a lot of trouble to make sure we had given up EVERYTHING to the Lord, or they said we would have problems with 'The Baptism of Fire' and I saw this many times. Too often one of us would try to hang on to something. It was explained we could never serve The Lord if we was holding something to ourselves - or be free Christians and this was totally right. I was hanging onto to vanity, I told them that by becoming a Christian I was scared I would become 'frumpy' as so many were in those days. I had to give that vanity up to the Lord and the freedom I experienced after was amazing.
I am quite sure that some of the Christian gun lobby are not giving their guns up to The Lord. He might not require ALL to do it but I'm sure He would some - it would depend on exactly HOW MUCH they want them - He wants us to want Him more than anything! and if they was walking with Him He would make this clear to them.

I think this is a good comparison to the rich young ruler Jesus had a talk with. He told him that what he lacked in his quest for eternal life was to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor. Notice he didn't tell everyone the same thing. It's because this particular person was clinging to his possessions and money and that's what was holding him back. If Jesus had been asked the same question by a different person, the answer may well have been different. Perhaps today, His answer would be to sell all your guns, or your home, or to stop drinking or doing drugs. There are many different vices that can hold a person back. Jesus knows what they are in each person's life. Sometimes we know our own vices as well, but sometimes it's not so clear to us.
 
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malvina

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I think this is a good comparison to the rich young ruler Jesus had a talk with. He told him that what he lacked in his quest for eternal life was to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor. Notice he didn't tell everyone the same thing. It's because this particular person was clinging to his possessions and money and that's what was holding him back. If Jesus had been asked the same question by a different person, the answer may well have been different. Perhaps today, His answer would be to sell all your guns, or your home, or to stop drinking or doing drugs. There are many different vices that can hold a person back. Jesus knows what they are in each person's life. Sometimes we know our own vices as well, but sometimes it's not so clear to us.

Exactly
(on twitter just now)
Kon Karapanagiotidis ‏@Kon__K 38m38 minutes ago

Number of American deaths in all wars since 1776 1.4 million
Number of American deaths since 1968 by firearms 1.4 million
 
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RDKirk

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I think this is a good comparison to the rich young ruler Jesus had a talk with. He told him that what he lacked in his quest for eternal life was to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor. Notice he didn't tell everyone the same thing. It's because this particular person was clinging to his possessions and money and that's what was holding him back. If Jesus had been asked the same question by a different person, the answer may well have been different. Perhaps today, His answer would be to sell all your guns, or your home, or to stop drinking or doing drugs. There are many different vices that can hold a person back. Jesus knows what they are in each person's life. Sometimes we know our own vices as well, but sometimes it's not so clear to us.

Very close after the story of the rich young ruler in Luke comes the story of Zacchaeus, and it's a stark comparison of how the two men approached Jesus and how they handled the question of surrendering their riches. The moment people started mumbling "Jesus must not know how Zacchaeus got his money," Zacchaeus immediately decided that his money was not going to be a stumbling block. He didn't even wait for Jesus' comment...Jesus might not have said anything at all. But then...Jesus would have known Zacchaeus' heart anyway.
 
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Always in His Presence

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At the point that the Lord clearly says to a man, "I want you to go to China and be a witness," and the man says, "They won't let me take my guns, so I won't go."

Or maybe it's just the Lord saying, "I want you to go to that particular church," and the man says, "That pastor doesn't let people carry a gun, so I'm not going."

I've heard too many gun owners say point blank (as it were) that they would not obey the Lord if it meant leaving their guns behind. Yet, they claim to be Christians.

In my 27 years of ministry, I've not heard gun ownership once used as an example for not being obedient a to the Lord. I have heard time, money, convenience, personal likes and dislikes used thousands of times though.

And yet i have never heard anyone calling their Christianity into question.

Hmmmmmm
 
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RDKirk

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In my 27 years of ministry, I've not heard gun ownership once used as an example for not being obedient a to the Lord. I have heard time, money, convenience, personal likes and dislikes used thousands of times though.

And yet i have never heard anyone calling their Christianity into question.

Hmmmmmm

You haven't asked enough people.
 
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