Do you think death is random?

[chad kincham]

You posit a false narrative, where 'immutable' and 'predestination' (even 'predetermination') imply non-interaction post creation.

This is a little like the notion that God can be First Cause over our universe, but not over other possible universes. God changes what he does to us according to what we do, just like he told us he would do, and just like he always planned. Not only that, but he does what it takes to cause us to do what we do. He is not confused as to which thing is going to finally be the end of cycles.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked."

BTW God 'changed his mind' means he relented, he changed course.

Except what you are claiming is not Calvinism or 5 point reformed dogma.

 

[TedT]

Just as an example, no relation to humanity: There is such a thing as an 'autonomous' computer program. It doesn't mean the computer can do anything spontaneously, but only that it operates independently of other computers or other programs. But the computer does not work independently of the programmer. The computer still acts according to its causes. Same word, different use.

Good morning Mark,
this describes human life of course...but it cannot describe
1. our fall into sin as GOD hates evil and can't abide it so would not cause us to sin, James 1:3, implying all sin is caused by and created in every sinner by a free will choice to rebel,

nor
2. in our our future marriage relationship with HIM based upon a full loving and holy communion with HIM which, to be a true marriage reflecting true love, must also arise from our free will. All contrary doctrine should be reconsidered and, rather than be deemed a mystery, should be looked into deeply for blasphemy, any hint of defamation against HIS loving, righteous justice, looking for a real reconciliation of opposite doctrines.

 

[TedT]

But even if he does not ask for permission, he causes them to WILL TO DO as they do. THEY choose to do it.

Yes, I too believe our sinful lives are like this BUT NOT WHEN when it comes to choosing sin or accepting HIS marriage proposal...these things MUST ABSOLUTELY BE by our free will without any coercion from HIM in the least or they are a sham, ie, our sins are by HIS will not ours so HE is guilty of them and our so called loving marriage is no more than Stepford wife programming.

All choices by a sinner are tainted by evil, that is, they are not free of the enslaving addiction to evil so any interference in our decision making as sinners by GOD is against our sinful will, not our free will which must be lost the instant we sin and only regained by our rebirth in Christ.

 

[TedT]

This is amazing. You position 'predetermination' to mean man has no will. God determines ahead. THAT is predetermination. Here you have been positing predetermination, and demonstrating how it works with man's will --the whole time arguing against yourself!

Yes , this is the double think necessary to reconcile the opposites of our free will and predetermination to ease the cognitive dissonance these contrary doctrines cause.

To my mind we MUST have chosen
- our FATES (elect or reprobate ) by our free will
- to rebel against HIM by our free will

Then, for HIS all sinners, reprobate weeds and good seed both, HE gives us predetermined LIVES here on earth, a predetermination which gives us the most perfect life to open our eyes to our sins and our need for a Saviour and to convince us of the absolute necessity of the banishment of the reprobate weed, aka the goats, to the outer darkness.

Only by this choice of all the sinful elect to be holy will the postponement of the judgement day end and we will finally be free from all evil, as is taught in the parable of the weeds, Matt 13.

 

[TedT]

So, His "ordination" of everything that happens does not necessarily mean that He is the "cause" of everything that happens.

Ouch, semantic overload.....!

 

[timothyu]

God recommends. We accept or reject.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Good morning Mark,
this describes human life of course...but it cannot describe
1. our fall into sin as GOD hates evil and can't abide it so would not cause us to sin, James 1:3, implying all sin is caused by and created in every sinner by a free will choice to rebel,

I could almost go with that statement, but for two things: a. I'm not sure what you take 'cause' to mean, in "...God...would not cause us to sin", and, b. I'm not sure what you take 'free' to mean, in "...sin is caused by....a free will choice to rebel".

Well, on further thought, there is a third: c. You seem to think 'caused by God' and 'caused by man' are mutually exclusive. They are not.

nor
2. in our our future marriage relationship with HIM based upon a full loving and holy communion with HIM which, to be a true marriage reflecting true love, must also arise from our free will. All contrary doctrine should be reconsidered and, rather than be deemed a mystery, should be looked into deeply for blasphemy, any hint of defamation against HIS loving, righteous justice, looking for a real reconciliation of opposite doctrines.

Lol, that is a kind way of telling me off! I'm a little puzzled about why you reference mere mystery, in the matter of doctrine contrary to 'free will'. I'm not sure why you think your excoriation is any more valid than mine would be using the same words. Your spiritual indigestion at doctrine opposing 'free will' is noted.

I wish you would do a good hard study of Reformed Theology, to see what it actually says. It in no way claims anything repugnant about God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, I too believe our sinful lives are like this BUT NOT WHEN when it comes to choosing sin or accepting HIS marriage proposal...these things MUST ABSOLUTELY BE by our free will without any coercion from HIM in the least or they are a sham, ie, our sins are by HIS will not ours so HE is guilty of them and our so called loving marriage is no more than Stepford wife programming.

WHY must they be by your version of 'free will'? Did we originate the will to love him? How is that possible when our will is set against him? Further, how can our free will decision have any integrity to it, apart from the act of God upon our will?

All choices by a sinner are tainted by evil, that is, they are not free of the enslaving addiction to evil so any interference in our decision making as sinners by GOD is against our sinful will, not our free will which must be lost the instant we sin and only regained by our rebirth in Christ.

What if it is not our decision until after he has effected a change of will in us? I can't make sense of: "...any interference in our decision making as sinners by GOD is against our sinful will, not our free will which must be lost the instant we sin and only regained by our rebirth in Christ." But I see no problem with God doing something to us that our sinful will would not choose to do on its own. In fact, I thank God he has done that to you and me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes , this is the double think necessary to reconcile the opposites of our free will and predetermination to ease the cognitive dissonance these contrary doctrines cause.

To my mind we MUST have chosen
- our FATES (elect or reprobate ) by our free will
- to rebel against HIM by our free will

Then, for HIS all sinners, reprobate weeds and good seed both, HE gives us predetermined LIVES here on earth, a predetermination which gives us the most perfect life to open our eyes to our sins and our need for a Saviour and to convince us of the absolute necessity of the banishment of the reprobate weed, aka the goats, to the outer darkness.

Only by this choice of all the sinful elect to be holy will the postponement of the judgement day end and we will finally be free from all evil, as is taught in the parable of the weeds, Matt 13.

There you are again, with the presupposition of 'free will'. I agree that Predetermination and Predestination, not to mention good sense, doesn't allow for uncaused action on the part of creatures. I do NOT agree that the word, "free", is necessary for acts of the will to be responsible and effective.

 

[coffee4u]

Why not? The intent with which the brothers did their evil is expressed the same way as the intent with which God apparently planned the situation. "You indeed meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." In the NIV, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good. There's no need for fancy gymnastics here.

God can not sin nor can he tempt us to sin but he will use sinful actions and turn them to good. His brothers intended evil for him, God turned that evil to good.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

 

[Daniel Marsh]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

I am not sure the bible says God knows when each person dies.

Jesus did tell a parable about a greedy farmer, whom God choose to kill that night. The book of James has something similar.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God can not sin nor can he tempt us to sin but he will use sinful actions and turn them to good. His brothers intended evil for him, God turned that evil to good.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Does that deny that he in fact INTENDED the situation?

 

[coffee4u]

Does that deny that he in fact INTENDED the situation?

Intended Joseph to be ruler in Egypt? Yes. This is how he saved the Jewish nation from starvation.
Intended for him to be thrown down the well, no, that was sinful and we know God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; the brothers did that from out of their own sinful nature, maybe or maybe not prompted by Satan. Satan is at work trying to wreck God's plan and wreck peoples lives. Either way God took a sinful action and turned it to good.
Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

 

[coffee4u]

I am not sure the bible says God knows when each person dies.

He does.
Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
God can see the beginning the middle and the end of history and time as easily as we can see our room. He not only saw us before we were even born, he saw them when he created Adam in the beginning.

 

[timothyu]

He does.
Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
God can see the beginning the middle and the end of history and time as easily as we can see our room. He not only saw us before we were even born, he saw them when he created Adam in the beginning.

Of course. He wrote the code.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Intended for him to be thrown down the well, no, that was sinful and we know God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; the brothers did that from out of their own sinful nature, maybe or maybe not prompted by Satan. Satan is at work trying to wreck God's plan and wreck peoples lives. Either way God took a sinful action and turned it to good.
Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Why assume that planning, intending, even causing that sinful acts happen, means that God tempts? Again, it simply makes no sense to me, that anything can happen apart from Causation --that is, that absolutely all things are caused effects, except First Cause. "It follows", lol.

God works all things. And he does it according to his purpose for the called ones.

 

[Marumorose]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

Jeremiah 1:5 God says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"

Our lives are planned out before we are born but how you live your life can shorten or extent your life.
2 Kings 20:5 "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, `This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. I will add fifteen years to your life."
May God bless you

 

[TedT]

double post...

 

[TedT]

b. I'm not sure what you take 'free' to mean, in "...sin is caused by....a free will choice to rebel".

My take on the meaning of our free will is a little more involved than orthodoxy likes us to look...

All FREE means is uncoerced and unconstrained:
IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion or constraints upon their choices, forcing them to choose anything good or bad, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics, cultural or familial values or experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: [URL="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness"]ingenuousness[/url] as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full possible consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the natural and legal consequences of their choice.

Only then are they following their desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality, defining and choosing for themselves the reality they most hope to enjoy. This kind fo choice is a free will decision based upon faith, an unproven hope.

Peace, Ted

 

[TedT]

WHY must they be by your version of 'free will'? Did we originate the will to love him? How is that possible when our will is set against him? Further, how can our free will decision have any integrity to it, apart from the act of God upon our will?

My premise is that choosing to sin enslaves us immediately to the addictive power of evil. People can still choose but their choices are imbued if not fully impelled by sin so no sinner has a free will. This is how GOD can manipulate a sinner's will because HE is not manipulating their free will at all, only their sinful will.

Your question seems to be based upon our ability to choose to necessarily mean we have a free will but a sinner's free will makes the enslavement to sin moot, and our Lord a babbler. An ability to choose doesn't mean the mind is not coerced by the love and desire for evil, James 1:14, and therefore NOT free of this coercion.