chad kincham
Well-Known Member
Except what you are claiming is not Calvinism or 5 point reformed dogma.
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Except what you are claiming is not Calvinism or 5 point reformed dogma.You posit a false narrative, where 'immutable' and 'predestination' (even 'predetermination') imply non-interaction post creation.
This is a little like the notion that God can be First Cause over our universe, but not over other possible universes. God changes what he does to us according to what we do, just like he told us he would do, and just like he always planned. Not only that, but he does what it takes to cause us to do what we do. He is not confused as to which thing is going to finally be the end of cycles.
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked."
BTW God 'changed his mind' means he relented, he changed course.
Good morning Mark,Just as an example, no relation to humanity: There is such a thing as an 'autonomous' computer program. It doesn't mean the computer can do anything spontaneously, but only that it operates independently of other computers or other programs. But the computer does not work independently of the programmer. The computer still acts according to its causes. Same word, different use.
But even if he does not ask for permission, he causes them to WILL TO DO as they do. THEY choose to do it.
Yes , this is the double think necessary to reconcile the opposites of our free will and predetermination to ease the cognitive dissonance these contrary doctrines cause.This is amazing. You position 'predetermination' to mean man has no will. God determines ahead. THAT is predetermination. Here you have been positing predetermination, and demonstrating how it works with man's will --the whole time arguing against yourself!
I could almost go with that statement, but for two things: a. I'm not sure what you take 'cause' to mean, in "...God...would not cause us to sin", and, b. I'm not sure what you take 'free' to mean, in "...sin is caused by....a free will choice to rebel".Good morning Mark,
this describes human life of course...but it cannot describe
1. our fall into sin as GOD hates evil and can't abide it so would not cause us to sin, James 1:3, implying all sin is caused by and created in every sinner by a free will choice to rebel,
nor
2. in our our future marriage relationship with HIM based upon a full loving and holy communion with HIM which, to be a true marriage reflecting true love, must also arise from our free will. All contrary doctrine should be reconsidered and, rather than be deemed a mystery, should be looked into deeply for blasphemy, any hint of defamation against HIS loving, righteous justice, looking for a real reconciliation of opposite doctrines.
Yes, I too believe our sinful lives are like this BUT NOT WHEN when it comes to choosing sin or accepting HIS marriage proposal...these things MUST ABSOLUTELY BE by our free will without any coercion from HIM in the least or they are a sham, ie, our sins are by HIS will not ours so HE is guilty of them and our so called loving marriage is no more than Stepford wife programming.
All choices by a sinner are tainted by evil, that is, they are not free of the enslaving addiction to evil so any interference in our decision making as sinners by GOD is against our sinful will, not our free will which must be lost the instant we sin and only regained by our rebirth in Christ.
Yes , this is the double think necessary to reconcile the opposites of our free will and predetermination to ease the cognitive dissonance these contrary doctrines cause.
To my mind we MUST have chosen
- our FATES (elect or reprobate ) by our free will
- to rebel against HIM by our free will
Then, for HIS all sinners, reprobate weeds and good seed both, HE gives us predetermined LIVES here on earth, a predetermination which gives us the most perfect life to open our eyes to our sins and our need for a Saviour and to convince us of the absolute necessity of the banishment of the reprobate weed, aka the goats, to the outer darkness.
Only by this choice of all the sinful elect to be holy will the postponement of the judgement day end and we will finally be free from all evil, as is taught in the parable of the weeds, Matt 13.
Why not? The intent with which the brothers did their evil is expressed the same way as the intent with which God apparently planned the situation. "You indeed meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." In the NIV, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good. There's no need for fancy gymnastics here.
In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?
Does that deny that he in fact INTENDED the situation?God can not sin nor can he tempt us to sin but he will use sinful actions and turn them to good. His brothers intended evil for him, God turned that evil to good.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Does that deny that he in fact INTENDED the situation?
I am not sure the bible says God knows when each person dies.
Of course. He wrote the code.He does.
Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
God can see the beginning the middle and the end of history and time as easily as we can see our room. He not only saw us before we were even born, he saw them when he created Adam in the beginning.
Why assume that planning, intending, even causing that sinful acts happen, means that God tempts? Again, it simply makes no sense to me, that anything can happen apart from Causation --that is, that absolutely all things are caused effects, except First Cause. "It follows", lol.Intended for him to be thrown down the well, no, that was sinful and we know God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; the brothers did that from out of their own sinful nature, maybe or maybe not prompted by Satan. Satan is at work trying to wreck God's plan and wreck peoples lives. Either way God took a sinful action and turned it to good.
Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Jeremiah 1:5 God says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?
My take on the meaning of our free will is a little more involved than orthodoxy likes us to look...b. I'm not sure what you take 'free' to mean, in "...sin is caused by....a free will choice to rebel".
WHY must they be by your version of 'free will'? Did we originate the will to love him? How is that possible when our will is set against him? Further, how can our free will decision have any integrity to it, apart from the act of God upon our will?
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