Do you support Israel?

[bouncer]

On 14 May 1948, Israel proclaimed its independence. Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country, forcing Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral homeland.

In Israel's War of Independence the brand new military (IDF) were very poorly equipped and lost 6,000 Israeli lives before fending off the intrusion. At the time 6,000 lives was somewhere near 1% of the Israelis living there.

If that isn't earning it, I don't know what is.

Who created the Israeli government? Israel, not the League of Nations, they just stabilized it. Israel wasn't even a nation in 1917... not until 1948.

Before then it was pretty much run by the Brittish. The Jews had to go somewhere.

You think the minority population of the Jews was really heroic enough to defeat the majority Arabs and WIN the state? 1% of the Jews were killed, but 0 palestinians were killed?

how about this, from the link i posted (which is from the BBC):

The UN set up a special committee which recommended splitting the territory into separate Jewish and Palestinian states. Palestinian representatives, known as the Arab Higher Committee, rejected the proposal; their counterparts in the Jewish Agency accepted it.

The partition plan gave 56.47% of Palestine to the Jewish state and 43.53% to the Arab state, with an international enclave around Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, 33 countries of the UN General Assembly voted for partition, 13 voted against and 10 abstained. The plan, which was rejected by the Palestinians, was never implemented.

Britain announced its intention to terminate its Palestine mandate on 15 May 1948 but hostilities broke out before the date arrived.

The death of British soldiers in the conflict made the continuing presence in Palestine deeply unpopular in Britain. In addition, the British resented American pressure to allow in more Jewish refugees - a sign of growing US suport for Zionism.


The year(1948) had begun with Jewish and Arab armies each staging attacks on territory held by the other side. Jewish forces, backed by the Irgun and Lehi militant groups made more progress, seizing areas alloted to the Jewish state but also conquering substantial territories allocated for the Palestinian one.

Irgun and Lehi massacred scores of inhabitants of the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem on 9 April. Word of the massacre spread terror among Palestinians and hundreds of thousands fled to Lebanon, Egypt and the area now known as the West Bank.

The Irgun and Lehi were apparently terrorist groups much like the palestinian terrorist groups operating today! Im not sure how much oppostion there was to these terrorist groups, but of course according to you they were freedom fighters who fought the good fight??!!!

The UN plan(which was never implemented) allocated 56.47% of palestine to the Jews ? On what basis ? No wonder they(the palestinians) have no regard for the US or the UN....

If you call, terrorising and driving countless Palestinians from what has been their home for centuries a fair fight;... I really dont know what to say....

I have a couple... how about Israel fought for it and won... how's that. Maybe the reason I sympathize with them is because they are somewhat like the US in that they fought the good fight to call themselves a sovereign nation and won.

Ok....well if the Palestinians claim they are fighting to win it back, what right do YOU or I have to condemn them ? Why is everyone so eager to condemn the palestinians , when what they are doing is not unlike how your so-called Israelis fought the good fight ?! They are engaging in a freedom fight of their own.....one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!

As for the attrocities, there isn't an Arab nation around that isn't guilty of the same thing, which in no way excuses it but also shows that no one here is without fault.

true....which is why it is important to analyze the ROOT cause of the problem. Read through the link I posted on the history of the conflict and it gives a fair idea of what went on.....reserve judgement until then.....

As I said before, I really dont know who is at fault and I dont think that any ONE side can be said to be responsible, but reading thru the history I dont think the palestinians deserve all flak they are getting, and I really dont think the Israels deserve all the BLIND support they get.....

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by bouncer


You think the minority population of the Jews was really heroic enough to defeat the majority Arabs and WIN the state? 1% of the Jews were killed, but 0 palestinians were killed?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. What difference does it make. Doesn't that kind of make it look like the Israelis gave up more than Palestine in the War for Independence.

how about this, from the link i posted (which is from the BBC):

The UN set up a special committee which recommended splitting the territory into separate Jewish and Palestinian states. Palestinian representatives, known as the Arab Higher Committee, rejected the proposal; their counterparts in the Jewish Agency accepted it.

The partition plan gave 56.47% of Palestine to the Jewish state and 43.53% to the Arab state, with an international enclave around Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, 33 countries of the UN General Assembly voted for partition, 13 voted against and 10 abstained. The plan, which was rejected by the Palestinians, was never implemented.

Britain announced its intention to terminate its Palestine mandate on 15 May 1948 but hostilities broke out before the date arrived.

The death of British soldiers in the conflict made the continuing presence in Palestine deeply unpopular in Britain. In addition, the British resented American pressure to allow in more Jewish refugees - a sign of growing US suport for Zionism.


The year(1948) had begun with Jewish and Arab armies each staging attacks on territory held by the other side. Jewish forces, backed by the Irgun and Lehi militant groups made more progress, seizing areas alloted to the Jewish state but also conquering substantial territories allocated for the Palestinian one.

Irgun and Lehi massacred scores of inhabitants of the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem on 9 April. Word of the massacre spread terror among Palestinians and hundreds of thousands fled to Lebanon, Egypt and the area now known as the West Bank.

The Irgun and Lehi were apparently terrorist groups much like the palestinian terrorist groups operating today! Im not sure how much oppostion there was to these terrorist groups, but of course according to you they were freedom fighters who fought the good fight??!!!

I was not referring to the Irgun and the Lehi. I was referring to the IDF. I do not support terrorism from anyone. However, the tactics used by the Irgun and Lehi were MUCH different from those used by the Palestinian terrorists. And, once again (but this time in bold letters I never said that Israel was without fault.

The UN plan(which was never implemented) allocated 56.47% of palestine to the Jews ? On what basis ? No wonder they(the palestinians) have no regard for the US or the UN....

If you call, terrorising and driving countless Palestinians from what has been their home for centuries a fair fight;... I really dont know what to say....

Oh please, was it a fair fight when Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq all invaded Israel at the same time. Israel barely had a 20 century worthy military. I'd have to call Israel the underdog in this one.

What Israeli terrorizing are you referring to?

Ok....well if the Palestinians claim they are fighting to win it back, what right do YOU or I have to condemn them ? Why is everyone so eager to condemn the palestinians , when what they are doing is not unlike how your so-called Israelis fought the good fight ?! They are engaging in a freedom fight of their own.....one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!

Just as much right as any one ever had to defend or go against Israel doing the same. However, it is more the tactics than the over-all goal that I am against. Although, I am pro-zionism to a degree.

true....which is why it is important to analyze the ROOT cause of the problem. Read through the link I posted on the history of the conflict and it gives a fair idea of what went on.....reserve judgement until then.....

Why is it that you think that I am so uneducated in this matter. I've done my research and I whole heartedly disagree with you. Is it so hard to believe that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they are stupid?

As I said before, I really dont know who is at fault and I dont think that any ONE side can be said to be responsible, but reading thru the history I dont think the palestinians deserve all flak they are getting, and I really dont think the Israels deserve all the BLIND support they get..... [/B]

"Blind support"? So if someone supports them, they are blind or are you just referring to the majority of the populace with inferior intelect?

 

[Julie]

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. (Ps 122:6)

 

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen. 12:3)

 

[bouncer]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. What difference does it make. Doesn't that kind of make it look like the Israelis gave up more than Palestine in the War for Independence.

You told me 1% of the Israelis died, but no mention of how many Palestinians died. So how does that in any way tell me who lost / gave up more ? Is it not possible that more Palestinians died ? Even if the proportion of palestinians that died were less, the actual number that died POSSIBLY exceeds that of the Israelis simply because they were in the majority.....
Still, this is no justification for anything....

I was not referring to the Irgun and the Lehi. I was referring to the IDF. I do not support terrorism from anyone. However, the tactics used by the Irgun and Lehi were MUCH different from those used by the Palestinian terrorists. And, once again (but this time in bold letters I never said that Israel was without fault.

What difference does tactics make? Terrorism is terrorism....whether it is suicide bombings or straight out massacre of innocents. The existence of the IDF does not excuse the actions of the Irgun and Lehi, and the impact these groups had in the Israeli fight is undeniable.....how can you support something which was won on terrorism with a clear conscience ?

Oh please, was it a fair fight when Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq all invaded Israel at the same time. Israel barely had a 20 century worthy military. I'd have to call Israel the underdog in this one.

What Israeli terrorizing are you referring to?

No, it wasnt......but you are looking at retaliatory action AFTER Israel had unjustly taken over land that no longer belonged to them....

Im referring to the terrorizing by the Irgun and Lehi and other such groups. Different tactics....but terrorism none the less.

Just as much right as any one ever had to defend or go against Israel doing the same. However, it is more the tactics than the over-all goal that I am against. Although, I am pro-zionism to a degree.

Again, I must ask, how does tactics make a difference ? Terrorism is terrorism, whatever way they choose to package it......

Why is it that you think that I am so uneducated in this matter. I've done my research and I whole heartedly disagree with you. Is it so hard to believe that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they are stupid?

I never meant to imply that you or anyone else is stupid....but forming an opinion in ignorance is a dangerous thing.....it just breeds hatred among others.
I was pro-zionist until I read the history. I am not pro palestine, but I can definitely understand their position now.
And I still dont see WHY you disagree with me....I am not asking anyone to become anti-israel or anti-palestine, but you condemn Palestine conveniently ignoring everything the Israelis did to them.....but I guess we can leave it at that, lets just agree to disagree.

"Blind support"? So if someone supports them, they are blind or are you just referring to the majority of the populace with inferior intelect?

Well you were the first one to cite a reason other than, "they were Gods people".

 

[bouncer]

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. (Ps 122:6)


And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen. 12:3)

The Israelites are no more or no less Gods people than You and I or for that matter the Arabs are.....they are no longer the favoured people they once were....
God has broken the covenant he made with them in the old testament, and a new covenant was made with the coming of Jesus.
Do you think God really supports anyone who is terrorist ?

 

[coastie]

You told me 1% of the Israelis died, but no mention of how many Palestinians died. Is it not possible that more Palestinians died ? Even if the proportion of palestinians who died were less, the actual number that died possibly exceeds that of the Israelis simply because they were in the majority.....
Still, this is no justification for anything....

I told you 6000 Israelis died which equaled around 1%. And I didn't say it justified anything, I was telling you how they got their country.

What difference does tactics make? Terrorism is terrorism....whether it is suicide bombings or straight out massacre of innocents. The existence of the IDF does not excuse the actions of the Irgun and Lehi, and the impact these groups had in the Israeli fight is undeniable.....how can you support something which was won on terrorism with a clear conscience ?

Tactics make a lot of difference. One could say that attrocities that took place in Vietnam were terrorism also. They are no doubt evil practices, but bombs on city buses are despicable, and I'm sure you and I agree on that.

I am not anti-palestine, I am anti-terrorist.

What actions are you referring to? If it is the one that I'm thinking of, it was condemned by the IDF, but you'd probably omit that instance for the conversation's sake.

No, it wasnt......but you are looking at retaliatory action AFTER Israel had unjustly taken over land that no longer belonged to them....

This is what I don't understand... what, to you, constitutes justly taking land. Is it ever truly just (in the purest sense of the word)?

Im referring to the terrorizing by the Irgun and Lehi and other such groups. Different tactics....but terrorism none the less.

Could you please be more specific?

Again, I must ask, how does tactics make a difference ? Terrorism is terrorism, whatever way they choose to package it......

Not true, in certain circumstances, guerilla warfare could be considered a terrorist action.

I never meant to imply that you or anyone else is stupid....but forming an opinion in ignorance is a dangerous thing.....it just breeds hatred among others.

I thought we were getting somewhere at the beginning of this paragraph, then my jaw dropped.

I do not want to breed hatred, but you can certainly make some one angry by consistently informing them of how ignorant they are.

(please fill in the blank) So if my opinion is not the same as your's it's _______.

And I still dont see WHY you disagree with me....I am not asking anyone to become anti-israel or anti-palestine, but you condemn Palestine conveniently ignoring everything the Israelis did to them.....but I guess we can leave it at that, lets just agree to disagree.

Hehe... "let's just put it to rest but..." hehe. You crack me up bro.

I never condemned Palestine. Where are you getting this stuff?

I am not dishonest which is exactly what you are insinuating when you said "conveniently ignoring." Sorry but that wrenches my gut.

Well you were the first one to cite a reason other than, "they were Gods people".

Sheesh! You must be confusing me with some one else, I read this whole thread and never saw anywhere where I said that.

Where is this stuff coming from?

 

[bouncer]

I told you 6000 Israelis died which equaled around 1%. And I didn't say it justified anything, I was telling you how they got their country.

I see....my apologies then....I thought you implied that this number was MORE than what the Palestinians lost and so somehow that justifies them getting Israel because, "they lost more."

I am not anti-palestine, I am anti-terrorist.

Great....we agree then.

What actions are you referring to? If it is the one that I'm thinking of, it was condemned by the IDF, but you'd probably omit that instance for the conversation's sake.

The PLO regularly condemns terrorist acts....(though I find it hard to believe they are totally against it.)
But people in GENERAL (not you) believe that they are a rogue organizations fighting for a lost cause.....I think their cause is perfectly justified, though not the means to achieve it.

This is what I don't understand... what, to you, constitutes justly taking land. Is it ever truly just (in the purest sense of the word)?

I really dont know....maybe it never is truly just. But that is exactly my point...if you DO agree that this land was taken over (and by some degree) unjustly by the Isrealis, any action the palestinians take against Israel can hardly be condemned , without condemning the FIRST unjust act commited(Israelis taking over the land...).
But as of now, the whole world recognizes Israel as a legitimate state protecting their sovereignty and Palestine as a terrorist nation , when all they are doing is fighting for their homeland which was taken from them with help from terrorism.....

Could you please be more specific?

Irgun and Lehi massacred scores of inhabitants of the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem on 9 April. Word of the massacre spread terror among Palestinians and hundreds of thousands fled to Lebanon, Egypt and the area now known as the West Bank.

I thought we were getting somewhere at the beginning of this paragraph, then my jaw dropped.

I do not want to breed hatred, but you can certainly make some one angry by consistently informing them of how ignorant they are.

I meant that as a general statement. I didnt mean YOU were ignorant.....you said you did your research, I believe you and can hardly call you ignorant if you did. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Well I was guilty of passing judgement in ignorance, and there definitely are many others who do so, because we as Christians, have a tendency to support Israelis because we think "they are Gods people".

(please fill in the blank) So if my opinion is not the same as your's it's _______.

The only place we differ is.....you recognize Israel as a sovereign state since they fought the "good fight."
I find it hard to condemn Palestine for their actions since Israel never won their independence fairly either....so by "supporting" them, it kinda implies I support the method with which they won their independence.....

Although, I am pro-zionism to a degree.

By saying you are pro-zionism, do I take it that :
a) you just like Jews because they are nice people.
b) you support sovereign israel, even though they might have used terrorism to gain independence.
c) you are anti-terrorist ?

Sheesh! You must be confusing me with some one else, I read this whole thread and never saw anywhere where I said that.

Where is this stuff coming from?

I said you were the first person who DIDNT say that and who cited a reason OTHER THAN THAT.....read my post carefully.

 

[coastie]

I really dont know....maybe it never is truly just. But that is exactly my point...if you DO agree that this land was taken over (and by some degree) unjustly by the Isrealis, any action the palestinians take against Israel can hardly be condemned , without condemning the FIRST unjust act commited(Israelis taking over the land...).
But as of now, the whole world recognizes Israel as a legitimate state protecting their sovereignty and Palestine as a terrorist nation , when all they are doing is fighting for their homeland which was taken from them with help from terrorism.....

My official stance is that there is no "perfect" answer except to give peace a go. However, I find it much easier to sympathize with Israel for reasons given previously.

Irgun and Lehi massacred scores of inhabitants of the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem on 9 April. Word of the massacre spread terror among Palestinians and hundreds of thousands fled to Lebanon, Egypt and the area now known as the West Bank.

This was condemned officially by the government, and I am trying to come up with a year, but all I can get is that it was never sanctioned by the government and was therefore an act of terrorism and not an act of war unlike Israel's war of independence.

I meant that as a general statement. I didnt mean YOU were ignorant.....you said you did your research, I believe you and can hardly call you ignorant if you did. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

What misunderstanding?

Well I was guilty of passing judgement in ignorance, and there definitely are many others who do so, because we as Christians, have a tendency to support Israelis because we think "they are Gods people".

I agree that it is very important to make an informed deciosion instead of just agreeing with everyone else.

The only place we differ is.....you recognize Israel as a sovereign state since they fought the "good fight."
I find it hard to condemn Palestine for their actions since Israel never won their independence fairly either....so by "supporting" them, it kinda implies I support the method with which they won their independence.....

Israel did not truly win their independence until they fought off the intruding nations. But that's just my opinion.

By saying you are pro-zionism, do I take it that :
a) you just like Jews because they are nice people.
b) you support sovereign israel, even though they might have used terrorism to gain independence.
c) you are anti-terrorist ?

Actually I said I am pro-zionism to a degree. Here's the catch. I am pro-zionism because it thrills me to see prophesies fullfilled. Not because I have some romantic love for the Jews. I see them as any other ethnic group, as equals.

I said you were the first person who DIDNT say that and who cited a reason OTHER THAN THAT.....read my post carefully.

LOL... I'm sorry. It was pretty late when I responded.

God Bless, brother.

This was a good conversation.

Zach

 

[panterapat]

There is not room here to list the atrosities that the Jews have suffered at the hands of the Arabs. Israel is surrounded by enemies. The Arab nations do not want peace for the Palistinians. They only want to see Israel vanquished. And the PLO is used to constantly fan the flames. Why should Isreal cede land for the Palistinians when none of the Arab nations are willing to give one square mile for "their" people. If Israel gives up much more land, their country will be virtually indefensable against an attack. Israel only targets terrorists among the PLO but the terrorists target Israel civilians. In fact, the law abiding Palistianians in Israel enjoy more rights and equality than they did under Jordanian rule in Trans-Jordan. I suggest a visit to the following web site. www.factsandlogic.com

In Christ: Patrick

 

[coastie]

I tried to go to that site but it doesn't exist yet or it's under construction...

Do you have another more direct link you can post?

 

[Lacmeh]

Yes the poor Israelis, law abiding and humane.
Did you know, that the Isralei legal system allows testimonies and confessions gained with TORTURE in legal court?
Israel legal system holds families responsible for actions taken by singular persons.

Imagine, McVeigh found guilty of bombing and his whole family is autmatically as guilty as McVeigh.
Imagine, one shoots an doctor working in an abortion clinic and because of his belief, that this doctor must die, his entire family has the same guilt as the one who did the actual shooting.
One member of the KKK kills or mutilates a black man and his entire family, wether they agree or not with KKK share his guilt.

That is what the Israeli do now. In my eyes, they lost any respect and sympathy they might have had.

 

[panterapat]

Coastie-
Sorry, my mistake. The address is:
factsandlogic.org
I told you it was .com
In Christ: Patrick

 

[Caleb]

America is one of the only countries that supports Israel and have been friends for many decades. Yes, I support Israel who has shown great restraint in the past following terrorist attacks. They have the patience of Job.