Do you really think He wants this?

Robban · Dec 2, 2020

Whatever anyone one may think of Christmas,

one thing that stands out is the lights,

a season of goodwill and cheer,

When I look out of my window it is dark,

at one time there were lights in almost every window,

not so today.

Is there nothing in Islam that focuses on light?

"In Your light do we see light."

BobRyan · Dec 2, 2020

Jaxxi said:
Do you really think Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior wants us celebrating a day in His honor by giving worldly goods and lying through our teeth to our children? They think Santa is real, and they hear its Jesus Birthday- then they find out Santa is NOT real and subconsciously assume Jesus isn't real either. Satan and Santa look a lot a like on paper- Don't you think Jesus would much rather have your personal gift of holiness? A lie is a lie- isn't this wrong? When do we stop this dangerous tradition of lying on Christmas?

* this question is not to condemn anyone as I am guilty of doing this with my children until I thought about it and I am just wondering if any other Christians have thought about it! Do you think He would want this?

It is a good question.

We used to do that - but now we dedicate the day to reading a commentary on the life of Jesus in the area dealing with His birth.
The Desire of Ages — Ellen G. White Writings

Then on New Years we give presents. We try not to mix the two.

15Ayana · Dec 2, 2020

Jaxxi said:
Do you really think Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior wants us celebrating a day in His honor by giving worldly goods and lying through our teeth to our children? They think Santa is real, and they hear its Jesus Birthday- then they find out Santa is NOT real and subconsciously assume Jesus isn't real either. Satan and Santa look a lot a like on paper- Don't you think Jesus would much rather have your personal gift of holiness? A lie is a lie- isn't this wrong? When do we stop this dangerous tradition of lying on Christmas?

* this question is not to condemn anyone as I am guilty of doing this with my children until I thought about it and I am just wondering if any other Christians have thought about it! Do you think He would want this?

“A lie is a lie.” I agree with you.
According to one theory, Christmas is not His birthday. It ’s another story that is far from the point, but we can celebrate His birthday on the day. Of course, we should thank and praise God everyday. However, it is good that celebrating it on some day specially, I think.

By the way, His birthday is sad day of Heavenly Father. Father gave us his only son in the day and Jesus’ birth was a start point to His death. I think we should thank and praise God of the Trinity while savor that harsh reality.

Santa’s story is fun to children. However, they should know that Jesus’ real and the importance of being grateful for it more than Santa’s funny lie.

Albion · Dec 2, 2020

Job3315 said:
That's what I meant with secular. I still celebrate and honor Jesus birth. I thought christians would understand what I meant with secular. I guess not all do.

Okay. It's always good to have a clarification. But surely you cannot be surprised if someone reads the following--

"I stopped celebrating secular holidays years ago."

...and thinks that Christmas (the topic here) is being referred to as a secular holiday.

Pavel Mosko · Dec 2, 2020

tulc said:
NICE! She was always one of my favorites!
tulc(now returns the thread back to where it left off)

Sadly coming from a Slavic background I did not hear of Baba Yaga until playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons and seeing her Hut and another one of her possession's in the Artifacts section of the Dungeon Master's Guide, magic items section, which caused me to actually learn that nice bit of Slavic folklore....

Come to think of that, I probably should not admit to that given the kind of witch hunting and heresy hunting going on lately so maybe I will just fade back into the background again.....

Pavel Mosko · Dec 2, 2020

tulc said:
...wait...are you asking us what we think or are you telling us what we should think? Because it sounds an awful lot like you've decided for everyone what's the right answer to what you asked. And I'm not sure that's how being a Christian really works. We're not here to conform to what you think is the only right way to serve the Lord.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

I kind of think saint Paul would take issue it with for all kinds of reasons based on what is being claimed, and even who is teaching and whether or not they have any authority to do so.

Palmfever · Dec 2, 2020

To me it is just an excuse to put a smile on the children's face. Who cares about Santa, and it is debatable as to the date of Christ's birth, most likely not December 25. It's fun.
Every day of the year has had pagans and morons participating in evil, murders, rapes, celebrating wickedness. Celebrate giving and family, I do and will continue to do so.
Romans 14:14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
In Christ

Jaxxi · Dec 2, 2020

tulc said:
LOL! You think this is the first time someone has started a thread about this on CF? If this wasn't 2020 and we weren't in the midst of a pandemic we'd probably have about twenty of these threads going at once on here. They tend to start right after Halloween and go till the end of the year. some want to know "How can a Christian justify celebrating a pagan/secular/fill in any of the half dozen or so different reasons people have for wondering why people do things they don't like" holiday. Some pretend to be asking opinions, some are more honest and just come right out and tell people "You're a "suspect Christian" if you do this!". And then people say "Well if you want to celebrate, than celebrate, if you don't, don't, just don't judge other people for thinking differently than you think they should." And it generally always ends with "Sorry you got offended at my simple question." and 99 times out of 100, it's not the people who say "don't judge others" who have gotten upset, it's usually the people who can't understand why other Christians insist on having a different opinion than they do." So, let's be clear on this: you didn't offend me, I wasn't "ready to box" and I've had nothing but fun posting in this thread. You asked for opinions about something, others gave it, you told them their opinion was wrong. That sort of kind of of sounds like someone who's interested in "boxing" about a subject. Anyway, try plugging "celebrating Christmas" in the search box at the top of the page, I suspect you'll find plenty of threads from past years of CF that you might find interesting.
tulc(hopes that clears up any misunderstanding Jaxxi seemed to have)

Haha! Where did I tell anyone they were wrong? What Id said was " you didn't answer the question". It does not require a big long drawn out explanation. It is pretty much a yes or no question and this isn't about celebrating or not. Its about if you think lying to your kids about a ' false idol' that basically overshadows the birth of Christ is how He would want you to celebrate His holy day!! Why do you think He would want this? Because it is obvious that you do.

Jaxxi · Dec 2, 2020

NBB said:
Still, is Jesus birthday celebration, i would totally not celebrate it if it was a pagan sun god celebration, you know?

So you are celebrating it with lying to your kids about Santa? I am just asking

Jaxxi · Dec 2, 2020

coffee4u said:
Most people know it isn't the actual day-because we don't know the actual day.
Over here we have a holiday for the Queens birthday -it isn't on her birthday but another more convenient day, which is what Christmas day is, convenient.

There is no god Mithras, it's a demon posing as such, and the 25th of December isn't it's birthday. Demons don't have birthdays.
By continually thinking about it as being a 'pagan day' you are validating it as being something. It isn't a pagan day because there is no such thing, God owns all the days.
Psalm 118:24
24 This is the day the Lord has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.

I agree, it's a perfect slap in the face to what might be viewed as a pagan day.

The question wasn't about it being pagan. It was would Jesus want it celebrated by lying to your kids about a ' false idol' that overshadows Jesus Holy day? You're right. It is a perfect slap in the face to what should be considered a Holy day dedicated to the Lord. The only gift the Lord would want is your holiness.

Jaxxi · Dec 2, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
While this isn't exactly verbatim applicable here, I think we can extrapolate from this:

"But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."

Food to us is a fairly minor issue, but under the Old Covenant there were a number of laws surrounding food and there was much conflict over that issue amongst believers during the early days of Christianity.

In the end we don't have to follow the old dietary laws under grace, however, IF we believe it's a sin to do something, it literally becomes a sin if we do it anyway.

Why? Because its the space your heart's in, you believe you've sinned against God and done it anyway, for whatever reason. (Never a good thing sinning against God, and never something we should feel comfortable doing)

There is a LOT of commercialization of the Christmas holiday, most of which I find utterly shocking as a believer simply because it's Christians engaging in it, but I have a fairly puritan mind too so there is that.

I do think such things as large spreads of baked goods and holiday decor and gift giving, Santa Clause etc seems to have taken the place, for many, of the Messiah.

But like food and eating, it's a heart thing... it doesn't have to take the place of Christ, in which case the celebration wouldn't run afoul of idolatry commands...

You can make anything an idol simply by giving it the place in your heart that Christ belongs. You can make an idol out of following laws just as much as you can make an idol out of Christmas celebrations...

It's really about where your heart is. I would caution you though, not to celebrate at all until you work through what is sin and what isn't where concerns this matter.

Is giving to the poor ever a bad thing? No. Is decorating your home a bad thing? No. Is memorializing the birth of Christ a bad thing? No, even though it's not commanded. Is getting together with family and loved ones a bad thing? No..

So what is left is the question 'are you, personally, making this holiday into an idol, giving it the place in your heart where only God belongs'? Or 'should God have a higher place on this day than I'm currently giving Him'?

If you want, have a Christmas without any commercialization of it... see where your heart is - your kids might not like it, but it might do all of you good to explore this topic together. Have them look up Bible verses in support of their positions, as well as others that don't support them and so forth... discuss it as a family, go through it as a family.

That might just take you all somewhere really good, if your kids are old enough...

That is a great answer! One year my mom made it so that all of our gifts to each other had to be hand made- so I went to the dollar store and bought a small nativity set of just the people and animals and I made the manger out of sticks and rocks and used a hot glue gun. It was pretty cool! She loved it. Then we baked a birthday cake for Jesus. When you take the commercialization out of it you really can focus on the fact that Our Lord was born and without that He couldn't have died and been resurrected. It can help to become creative with Jesus inspired hand painted ornaments or other fun traditions that you can create as a family.

Jaxxi · Dec 2, 2020

BobRyan said:
It is a good question.

We used to do that - but now we dedicate the day to reading a commentary on the life of Jesus in the area dealing with His birth.
The Desire of Ages — Ellen G. White Writings

Then on New Years we give presents. We try not to mix the two.

That is a great way to celebrate. Good for you! Putting Christ in Christmas is never a bad thing.

tulc · Dec 2, 2020

Jaxxi said:
Haha! Where did I tell anyone they were wrong? What Id said was " you didn't answer the question". It does not require a big long drawn out explanation. It is pretty much a yes or no question and this isn't about celebrating or not. Its about if you think lying to your kids about a ' false idol' that basically overshadows the birth of Christ is how He would want you to celebrate His holy day!! Why do you think He would want this?

Ever heard of the fallacy: "poisoning the well"?
Poisoning the well - Wikipedia.

Poisoned-well arguments are sometimes used with preemptive invocations of the association fallacy. In this pattern, an unfavorable attribute is ascribed to any future opponents, in an attempt to discourage debate. (For example, "That's my stance on funding the public education system, and anyone who disagrees with me hates children.") Any person who steps forward to dispute the claim will then risk applying the tag to him or herself in the process. This is a false dilemma: not all future opponents necessarily have the unfavorable attribute. (For example, not everyone who has a different opinion on funding the public education system necessarily hates children.)

this is the question you asked:

if you think lying to your kids about a ' false idol' that basically overshadows the birth of Christ is how He would want you to celebrate His holy day

That's the first fallacy in your thread, the second would be:
False dilemma - Wikipedia

A false dilemma (sometimes called false dichotomy) is a type of informal, correlative-based fallacy in which a statement falsely claims or assumes an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional logically valid option.[1] For example, somebody uses false dichotomy when they say, "Stacey spoke out against socialism, therefore she must be a fascist." She may be neither socialist nor fascist, or a socialist who disagrees with portions of socialism. Another example is, "Roger opposed an atheistic argument against Christianity, so he must be a Christian." This reasoning assumes the opposition by itself means he's a Christian. Roger might be an atheist who disagrees with the logic of some particular argument against Christianity. Additionally, it can be the result of habitual tendency, whatever the cause, to view the world with limited sets of options.

you than claim there's only two ways to answer (yes or no) to a question that has several different answers to it. So, let's recap: you ask peoples opinions (which actually can't be right or wrong, they're simply an opinion), you frame the question to try and make only one one answer "correct", you claim there's only two ways to answer the question (when there's several). And those are just the opening ones.
But my favorite is this part:

Because it is obvious that you do.

You actually have know idea what how I celebrate Christmas. Or don't. What you do know is: "I believe people should celebrate (or not) however they feel led, and not judge how other people do (or don't) celebrate it." That's it. That's all the information you have about what I believe. OH! I will tell you this much: I'll be drinking coffee no matter what happens. Or doesn't.
tulc(is thinking about getting some more coffee even as he posts this)

Sketcher · Dec 2, 2020

Jaxxi said:
Do you really think Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior wants us celebrating a day in His honor by giving worldly goods and lying through our teeth to our children? They think Santa is real, and they hear its Jesus Birthday- then they find out Santa is NOT real and subconsciously assume Jesus isn't real either.

Giving worldly goods is good, because it forces people to practice giving. In a selfish society, that is critically important. I already save my money and avoid debt for the most part, so I need to practice being open-handed too. Christmas provides another opportunity for me to do that.

Lying to children about Santa is not something I believe in. My parents didn't seem to benefit, because I would constantly ask Santa for the big-ticket items they told me all year that we couldn't afford. Fortunately, I didn't have a major crisis of faith when I found out Santa wasn't real (I had suspected he wasn't real for a while at the time). IIRC, that happened before I was baptized. The Gospel has much stronger footing than Santa Claus, so I really don't see why anyone should assume that any reasonable person would be led to believe that Jesus isn't real just because Santa isn't.

Jaxxi said:
Satan and Santa look a lot a like on paper

Maybe when writing their names out? That's still one heck of a reach.

Jaxxi · Dec 2, 2020

Palmfever said:
To me it is just an excuse to put a smile on the children's face. Who cares about Santa, and it is debatable as to the date of Christ's birth, most likely not December 25. It's fun.
Every day of the year has had pagans and morons participating in evil, murders, rapes, celebrating wickedness. Celebrate giving and family, I do and will continue to do so.
Romans 14:14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
In Christ

That is a great answer. So do you think Jesus would want His holy day to be overshadowed by lying to kids about Santa?

coffee4u · Dec 2, 2020

Jaxxi said:
The question wasn't about it being pagan. It was would Jesus want it celebrated by lying to your kids about a ' false idol' that overshadows Jesus Holy day? You're right. It is a perfect slap in the face to what should be considered a Holy day dedicated to the Lord. The only gift the Lord would want is your holiness.

Like I said in my post back to you (which you have not responded to) I never lied to my kids about Santa. They always knew that Santa was like like Elmo or any other pretend character but also that he was based on a real person called St. Nicholas of Myra during the 4th century who gave presents to his village. But even if I had wanted to have them believe in Santa that would have been my choice to make. If others want to pretend he is real that is for them to decide. I don't get to judge them on that.
Matthew 7:1-2
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Holiness is to do with the heart, not outward appearance, food eaten or days kept.

It does not matter what we eat or don't eat. food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
It does not matter what day we observe or don't observe. One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
Nothing is unclean (Including Christmas) unless to you it is unclean.
I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.

If for you Christmas is unclean then do not celibate it but if it is clean for someone else then they should. You cannot decide this for others.
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.

Palmfever · Dec 2, 2020

Jaxxi said:
That is a great answer. So do you think Jesus would want His holy day to be overshadowed by lying to kids about Santa?

Why is it a holy day? Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
In Christ
Christmas at my house has nothing to do with Santa. And every day is communion with God.

Palmfever · Dec 2, 2020

Thanks for the questions Jaxxi. You seem sincere. Keep the faith.
In Christ

NBB · Dec 3, 2020

Jaxxi said:
So you are celebrating it with lying to your kids about Santa? I am just asking

I don't have kids, but i think is not good either lying to them, or tell them the truth either since kids can have their fantasies and they are innocent so why burst their bubble, i don't know.

Par5 · Dec 3, 2020

Jaxxi said:
That is a great answer. So do you think Jesus would want His holy day to be overshadowed by lying to kids about Santa?

Kids love the idea of Santa. It gives them the opportunity to have some innocent fun and excitement. Why would you want to deprive them of that?
Anyway, it does them no harm. I am still waiting to meet an adult who is currently having life issues because of the day they realized Santa didn't exist.

Do you really think He wants this?

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