Do you get saved through baptism?

[MrJim]

I imagine that Lutherans would explain it the same as Anglicans would explain it the same as Catholics would explain it the same as the early Church would explain it.

This would be the Baptism of desire as would martyrdom in the absence of water baptism be the Baptism of Blood.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#XVII
The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.

Baptism of Blood is a term also used by the anabaptists during the Radical Reformation when upon conversion some would be arrested and executed before receiving water baptism..

 

[Secundulus]

Baptism of Blood is a term also used by the anabaptists during the Radical Reformation when upon conversion some would be arrested and executed before receiving water baptism..

This goes to show how similar are our real beliefs and how much of a disgrace it is that so many Christians on all sides have received their Baptism of Blood at the hands of other Christians.

Christ wept.

 

[DeaconDean]

John the baptist pointed towards the immersion in the The Holy Spirit as better than water, as well as Jesus,..

The immersion "into" The Holy Spirit is what cleanses us from sin. Water was only symbolic of the spiritual event we were to experience from The Holy Spirit. IE the tangibly felt born-again "experience."

So, you mean to tell me that in John 20:22, when Jesus said:

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

They did not actually receive the Holy Spirit? They had to wait 40 days for the "baptism of the Holy Ghost"?

Yea, right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I imagine that Lutherans would explain it the same as Anglicans would explain it the same as Catholics would explain it the same as the early Church would explain it.

This would be the Baptism of desire as would martyrdom in the absence of water baptism be the Baptism of Blood.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#XVII
The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.

You know, that is the dividing line here.

I am a licesened minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I was licesened to preach in 2003. When I am in the pulpit at my church, I do not preach from anything written by the ECF's. I do not preach from the apocrypha books. I do not preach from anything John Gill wrote.

Those men who wrote those 66 books of the Bible, those are the men I preach.

And nowhere in the Bible is the doctrine of "Baptism of desire".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ARBITER01]

So, you mean to tell me that in John 20:22, when Jesus said:

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

They did not actually receive the Holy Spirit? They had to wait 40 days for the "baptism of the Holy Ghost"?

Yea, right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

That is exactly what I am saying DD.

When we are born again, we receive The Holy Spirit there and then. The 12 Apostles did not receive something ahead of any of the others that were in that room with them, everyone still had to wait till The Holy Spirit was given before they could receive Him.

Until Jesus was exalted by the right hand of The Father, IE raised up into heaven to be seated next to HIM, and given the promise of The Holy Spirit from The Father, did He pour out The Holy Spirit to anyone,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

Scripture is our witness here.

No one received The Holy Spirit prior to Jesus being seated in heaven to pour Him out, so no, the Apostles did not receive anything over in John 20:22, it was only Jesus directing them towards the eventual event to happen which is documented in acts 2 by Luke. If they had received The Holy Spirit already, there would have been no need for them to wait with the others in the upper room.

Just so you know, my stance does not advocate a sort of "second blessing" for anyone in scripture as some denominations do. They received their salvation and filling at that very point in acts 2, not before that.

 

[DeaconDean]

That is exactly what I am saying DD.

When we are born again, we receive The Holy Spirit there and then. The 12 Apostles did not receive something ahead of any of the others that were in that room with them, everyone still had to wait till The Holy Spirit was given before they could receive Him.

Until Jesus was exalted by the right hand of The Father, IE raised up into heaven to be seated next to HIM, and given the promise of The Holy Spirit from The Father, did He pour out The Holy Spirit to anyone,..

Scripture is our witness here.

No one received The Holy Spirit prior to Jesus being seated in heaven to pour Him out, so no, the Apostles did not receive anything over in John 20:22, it was only Jesus directing them towards the eventual event to happen which is documented in acts 2 by Luke. If they had received The Holy Spirit already, there would have been no need for them to wait with the others in the upper room.

Just so you know, my stance does not advocate a sort of "second blessing" for anyone in scripture as some denominations do. They received their salvation and filling at that very point in acts 2, not before that.

You realize that here, you are calling the scriptures a liar?

Scriptures say Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit. (cf. Jn. 20:22)

"Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

What you are saying is that the scriptures lie. This did not happen. Jesus did not breath on them and they did not receive the Holy Spirit.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is said here:

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." -Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Is speaking of the evidences given in the first century such as speaking in tongues.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.' -Acts 2:4 (KJV)

How is it that the Holy Spirit came upon those in the upper room when it wasn't given until Acts 2:33 as you contend?

Strange, very strange.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ARBITER01]

You realize that here, you are calling the scriptures a liar?

Scriptures say Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit. (cf. Jn. 20:22)

"Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

What you are saying is that the scriptures lie. This did not happen. Jesus did not breath on them and they did not receive the Holy Spirit.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is said here:

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." -Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Is speaking of the evidences given in the first century such as speaking in tongues.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.' -Acts 2:4 (KJV)

How is it that the Holy Spirit came upon those in the upper room when it wasn't given until Acts 2:33 as you contend?

Strange, very strange.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I'm sorry, I think you are getting a little confused here.

Just because Jesus said "receive ye The Holy Spirit" at that point over in John, does not mean that any receiving of anything happened then and there for just the apostles and no one else. GOD is no respecter of persons, and the apostles had to wait in that group of 120 to receive The Holy Spirit also.

As the scripture says, Jesus was raised up in heaven by GOD to be seated next to HIM, then was Jesus given the ability to pour out The Holy Spirit to everyone, not before that.

Just because the more Spirit-filled denominations and groups teach about the baptism of The Holy Spirit as a second event to be experienced, and it is for many, it does not mean their teaching accurately reflects the events that happened in acts 2.

The events documented over in acts depict the disciples salvation and receiving of The Holy Spirit together when they were all in the upper room waiting, not prior to that.

No one received anything in ways of the new birth until Jesus sat down on the throne and was given the power to do so by The Father, scripture is clear about that.

 

[DeaconDean]

I'm sorry, I think you are getting a little confused here.

Just because Jesus said "receive ye The Holy Spirit" at that point over in John, does not mean that any receiving of anything happened then and there for just the apostles and no one else. GOD is no respecter of persons, and the apostles had to wait in that group of 120 to receive The Holy Spirit also.

As the scripture says, Jesus was raised up in heaven by GOD to be seated next to HIM, then was Jesus given the ability to pour out The Holy Spirit to everyone, not before that.

Just because the more Spirit-filled denominations and groups teach about the baptism of The Holy Spirit as a second event to be experienced, and it is for many, it does not mean their teaching accurately reflects the events that happened in acts 2.

The events documented over in acts depict the disciples salvation and receiving of The Holy Spirit together when they were all in the upper room waiting, not prior to that.

No one received anything in ways of the new birth until Jesus sat down on the throne and was given the power to do so by The Father, scripture is clear about that.

I disagree.

Ver. 22. And when he had said this,.... That is, declared he sent them forth in like manner as his Father sent him:

he breathed on them; in allusion to God's breathing the breath of life into man, at his creation; or rather, to the Spirit himself, who is the breath of God, and proceeds from him, as from the Father; and who breathes both upon persons in regeneration, and in qualifying for ministerial service, at the instance and influence of Christ: and such an opinion the Jews have of the Spirit of the Messiah, who say {p}, that

"the Spirit went from between the wings of the cherubim,
hybvnw, "and breathed upon him" (Menasseh) by the decree, or order of the word of the Lord.''

And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost; meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed; but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity: the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them.

{p} Targum in 2 Chron. xxxiii. 13.

http://www.freegrace.net/gill/

The sign he used to assure them of, and affect them with, the gift he was now about to bestow upon them: He breathed on them; not only to show them, by this breath of life, that he himself was really alive, but to signify to them the spiritual life and power which they should receive from him for all the services that lay before them...That the Spirit is the gift of Christ. The apostles communicated the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, those hands being first lifted up in prayer, for they could only beg this blessing, and carry it as messengers; but Christ conferred the Holy Ghost by breathing, for he is the author of the gift, and from him it comes originally. Moses could not give his Spirit, God did it (Num. xi. 17); but Christ did it himself.
[2.] The solemn grant he made, signified by this sign, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, in part now, as an earnest of what you shall further receive not many days hence." They now received more of the Holy Ghost than they had yet received. Thus spiritual blessings are given gradually; to him that has shall be given. Now that Jesus began to be glorified more of the Spirit began to be given: see ch. vii. 39. Let us see what is contained in this grant. First, Christ hereby gives them assurance of the Spirit's aid in their future work, in the execution of the commission now given them: "I send you, and you shall have the Spirit to go along with you." Now the Spirit of the Lord rested upon them to qualify them for all the services that lay before them. Whom Christ employs he will clothe with his Spirit, and furnish with all needful powers.

Link

Oh they were given the Holy Spirit alright, but the gifts which accompany the Holy Spirit, they had to wait upon that. But they indeed did receive the Holy Spirit.

And to suggest otherwise, Jesus saying "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (cf. Jn. 20:22) and saying that it did not happen, the giving of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost, is saying that Jesus lied, the event did not happen, the scriptures lie.

The events documented over in acts depict the disciples salvation

Now you are suggesting that the disciples, now apostles, were not saved until Pentecost?!?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ARBITER01]

I disagree.



http://www.freegrace.net/gill/



Link

Oh they were given the Holy Spirit alright, but the gifts which accompany the Holy Spirit, they had to wait upon that. But they indeed did receive the Holy Spirit.

And to suggest otherwise, Jesus saying "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (cf. Jn. 20:22) and saying that it did not happen, the giving of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost, is saying that Jesus lied, the event did not happen, the scriptures lie.



Now you are suggesting that the disciples, now apostles, were not saved until Pentecost?!?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Again, I'm seeing confusion over this area, and you are suggesting that I take personal opinion over scripture here. I'm sorry I'm not inclined to accept it, in fact, most scholar commentaries just happen to agree that Jesus was pointing them towards the event to happen instead of your position here.

We must understand the scriptures foremost,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

Jesus did not receive The promise of The Holy Spirit to give and pour out to anyone until he was exalted into heaven by The Father. Cut and dry on this my friend. You're trying to say that it happened before acts 2, and Peter is telling you no.

 

[DeaconDean]

The events documented over in acts depict the disciples salvation and receiving of The Holy Spirit together when they were all in the upper room waiting, not prior to that.

Do you also realize that what you are implying here is that Jesus' death was not enough to secure the salvation of anyone until the Holy Spirit was come.

Acts 1:3 tells us that Jesus continued his ministry for 40 days after His resurrection. Then it is also believed that the disciple waited 10 more days for Pentecost to come.

So, from your statement above, you are saying that the disciples had to wait 50 days before they were saved.

That nobody was saved until the Spirit had come in Acts 2:33.

I cannot, and I will not accept that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Again, I'm seeing confusion over this area, and you are suggesting that I take personal opinion over scripture here. I'm sorry I'm not inclined to accept it, in fact, most scholar commentaries just happen to agree that Jesus was pointing them towards the event to happen instead of your position here.

We must understand the scriptures foremost,..



Jesus did not receive The promise of The Holy Spirit to give and pour out to anyone until he was exalted into heaven by The Father. Cut and dry on this my friend. You're trying to say that it happened before acts 2, and Peter is telling you no.

I think you better re-read what I quoted:

meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed;

Christ conferred the Holy Ghost by breathing, for he is the author of the gift, and from him it comes originally...Receive ye the Holy Ghost, in part now, as an earnest of what you shall further receive not many days hence." They now received more of the Holy Ghost than they had yet received.

Oh they received the Holy Spirit alright, just not the gifts of the spirit which accompany the Holy Spirit.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ARBITER01]

Do you also realize that what you are implying here is that Jesus' death was not enough to secure the salvation of anyone until the Holy Spirit was come.

Acts 1:3 tells us that Jesus continued his ministry for 40 days after His resurrection. Then it is also believed that the disciple waited 10 more days for Pentecost to come.

So, from your statement above, you are saying that the disciples had to wait 50 days before they were saved.

That nobody was saved until the Spirit had come in Acts 2:33.

I cannot, and I will not accept that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I don't see why it would be hard to accept unless it is stepping on a personal doctrinal position you may have.

There is nothing in scripture that somehow separates the gifts of The Spirit and The Holy Spirit, nor are we to say that what Luke documented that happened in acts 2 somehow happened differently for just the apostles and no one else. That would not make sense given that GOD is no respecter of persons.

Our positions have to agree with the combined weight of scripture. For me or anyone to say that the apostles received The Holy Spirit prior to the ascension of Jesus, would then go directly against that section of scripture in acts 2 that I quoted from Peter. I create a contradiction for myself if I say differently then what I pointed out already.

 

[DeaconDean]

I don't see why it would be hard to accept unless it is stepping on a personal doctrinal position you may have...Our positions have to agree with the combined weight of scripture. For me or anyone to say that the apostles received The Holy Spirit prior to the ascension of Jesus, would then go directly against that section of scripture in acts 2 that I quoted from Peter. I create a contradiction for myself if I say differently then what I pointed out already.

What you are saying here is that Acts 2 has presidence over waht was said earlier.

Acts 2 actually happened before Jn. 20:22.

That I do not believe, and i cannot accept, nor will I accept it.

Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit right then and there. They had to wait until Pentecost for those gifts, raising of the dead, healing of the lame, speaking in tongues, those gifts described in 1 Cor 12-14 to come.

And a plain stright forward reading of what you wrote here:

The events documented over in acts depict the disciples salvation and receiving of The Holy Spirit together when they were all in the upper room waiting

Is saying that the disciples were not saved, indeed, nobody was saved until that moment when the Holy Spirit descended on them in the upper room.

I guess Jesus lied to the man on the road to Jericho and the woman in the Pharisees house.

Their faith did not save them, they were not saved until Pentecost.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I guess those "saints" which got up from the grave with Jesus when He arose from the dead were not really saved either until Pentecost.

Because "salvation" did not come until the upper room event.

Hum...

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ARBITER01]

What you are saying here is that Acts 2 has presidence over waht was said earlier.

Acts 2 actually happened before Jn. 20:22.

That I do not believe, and i cannot accept, nor will I accept it.

Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit right then and there. They had to wait until Pentecost for those gifts, raising of the dead, healing of the lame, speaking in tongues, those gifts described in 1 Cor 12-14 to come.

And a plain stright forward reading of what you wrote here:



Is saying that the disciples were not saved, indeed, nobody was saved until that moment when the Holy Spirit descended on them in the upper room.

I guess Jesus lied to the man on the road to Jericho and the woman in the Pharisees house.

Their faith did not save them, they were not saved until Pentecost.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Sorry, but to say that Jesus had received the promise of The Father prior to His ascension by The Father is contradictory. That is what you are trying to say.

No one received their "immersion" into the forgiveness of their sins until The Holy Spirit was given to Jesus by The Father. That was why Jesus told them to wait for it since The Holy Spirit was not already handed out to them.

To say otherwise creates the contradictory position with scripture.

 

[DeaconDean]

You know what, you have your beliefs and I have mine.

I see you teaching some things that do not line up with what scriptures say.

You believe you are relating exactly what the scripture says.

Obviously you have been blessed in your beliefs.

As have I.

I posted a direct understanding of exactly what the Greek text says regarding salvation by baptism.

In a very real sense, as it was pointed out to me that not only me, but several of us have been guilty of violating the Op's wishes, not to let this turn into a debate.

For that, I sincerly apologize.

Brother, I hope and pray that you are right in your beliefs. And I hope you continue to be blessed.

I am going to exit out of this discussion/debate gracefully.

May God bless you one and all.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ARBITER01]

You know what, you have your beliefs and I have mine.

I see you teaching some things that do not line up with what scriptures say.

You believe you are relating exactly what the scripture says.

Obviously you have been blessed in your beliefs.

As have I.

I posted a direct understanding of exactly what the Greek text says regarding salvation by baptism.

In a very real sense, not only me, but several of us have been guilty of violating the Op's wishes, not to let this turn into a debate.

For that, I sincerly apologize.

Brother, I hope and pray that you are right in your beliefs. And I hope you continue to be blessed.

I am going to exit out of this discussion/debate gracefully.

May God bless you one and all.

God Bless

Till all are one.

That's a graceful stance to take, and that is cool on your part.

You may think that what I was stating was unscriptural, but it is the opposite. It may run counter to a lot of folks and their beliefs on here, especially of those in long established denominations, but there is nothing to say that The Holy Spirit happened for a select few when the new birth from Jesus wasn't given to happen yet for anyone on earth.

It may a point of contention for many, but I understand.

 

[Floatingaxe]

When Jesus breathed on His disciples, He was giving them their salvation. It was a demonstration that we receive the Holy Spirit in salvation, but there is another baptism that we need--that of the Holy Spirit, usually at another time. Sometimes it is simultaneous with water baptism, as in:

Acts 19:1-7
While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior regions until he reached Ephesus, on the coast, where he found several believers. “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” he asked them. “No,” they replied, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
“Then what baptism did you experience?” he asked.
And they replied, “The baptism of John.”
Paul said, “John’s baptism called for repentance from sin. But John himself told the people to believe in the one who would come later, meaning Jesus.”
As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in other tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.

 

[Nadiine]

I guess those "saints" which got up from the grave with Jesus when He arose from the dead were not really saved either until Pentecost.

Because "salvation" did not come until the upper room event.

Hum...

God Bless

Till all are one.

That actually may be the case - one of my favorite teachers claims that he doesn't think they were saved yet until later in Acts.
& some of the proof he used was that they didn't understand nearly anything Jesus was saying.
Even the parables, Jesus had to explain it all to them.
If you remember, the parables were veiled truth - the problem is, it was still veiled to them & they were Jesus' own.

I think the veil might have been lifted for them later on. Just speculation, we can't honestly know & that's why I don't think it's needs harsh debate.
Nobody can prove either side of that one, different scriptures can lend support to each side.

 

[ARBITER01]

When Jesus breathed on His disciples, He was giving them their salvation. It was a demonstration that we receive the Holy Spirit in salvation, but there is another baptism that we need--that of the Holy Spirit, usually at another time. Sometimes it is simultaneous with water baptism, as in:

Acts 19:1-7
While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior regions until he reached Ephesus, on the coast, where he found several believers. “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” he asked them. “No,” they replied, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
“Then what baptism did you experience?” he asked.
And they replied, “The baptism of John.”
Paul said, “John’s baptism called for repentance from sin. But John himself told the people to believe in the one who would come later, meaning Jesus.”
As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in other tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.

Sorry Axe, but read the scriptures on it,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

When did Jesus receive the promise of The Holy Spirit to pour out unto people? Only when He was raised up to be seated next to The Father, then He poured out The Holy Spirit to folks.

That means there was no new rebirth from Jesus until this point here in scripture because salvation is certainly not apart from receiving The Holy Spirit within. Absolutely no one has received salvation without receiving The Holy Spirit inside as the seal of their redemption, no one.

If Jesus was not granted The Holy Spirit at that point to hand out to anyone yet, and by scripture He wasn't, then we cannot create a contradictory statement for ourselves by saying that He did hand it out to folks before that point.