Do you ever get tired?

[ZiSunka]

Of denominations and all the stuff that goes along with denominationalism?

 

[CelticRose]

Can you explain Ashes? I live somewhere we are just grateful to have a church & denomination does not come into it.

 

[GorrionGris]

Yes, sometimes I look at differences and think... was that really a reason to separate?

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

Yes, sometimes I look at differences and think... was that really a reason to separate?

I feel this way, too.

I don't understand why Cf has to be divided up into denominations. There doesn't seem to be any place where just plain old Christians can talk to just plain old Christians.

Although I am Anabaptist by birth, upbringing and choice, I really think of myself as a unfettered Christian. Denomination doesn't really mean much to me at all. I think all denominations have good things to offer the body of Christ.

It gets tiresome for all our discussions to have to be centered around what is officially Anabaptist as a denominational heading.

 

[ZiSunka]

Sadly, CF divided into denominational forums because people couldn't get along. A sad microcosm of the real world, I guess.

But I agree that "church as usual" is part of the problem of the 21st century church. And having services on a different night of the week or substituting contemporary music for the old hymns of our parents' and grandparents' generation isn't really the answer.

 

[MrJim]

I feel this way, too.

I don't understand why Cf has to be divided up into denominations. There doesn't seem to be any place where just plain old Christians can talk to just plain old Christians.

Although I am Anabaptist by birth, upbringing and choice, I really think of myself as a unfettered Christian. Denomination doesn't really mean much to me at all. I think all denominations have good things to offer the body of Christ.

It gets tiresome for all our discussions to have to be centered around what is officially Anabaptist as a denominational heading.

The "Deeper Fellowship" forum is set up for that I guess-cream above the sloshing milk...

If it wasn't divided by denoms the whole place would look like GT, and like Ashes says, it's just a picture of the church in general.

 

[MrJim]

Of denominations and all the stuff that goes along with denominationalism?

We've talked about this in the past, and I still tend to agree with the Catholic & Orthodox folks on this one. Because the reformation "freed" us from the "chains" of tradition, papacy, etc., we are free to be our own popes and determine for ourselves what we "feel" the Holy Spirit is leading us. If I don't like this preacher or church, I'll just go find one that "suits", and hey if all of them suck I'll just form my own Bless God...

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the strife on the anabaptist forum; as small a body it is historically it's probably splintered way more times than any of the mainline groups...and each and every one believing they are doing God's bidding...and perhaps in certain ways they are? Yet splitting apart isn't really supposed to be part of the plan.

The factions are just part of the price we pay I suppose...though I think this group has the right idea, simply being hands and feet and loving our neighbor even to the point of moving into the inner cities to become part of the community...and they are a collection of all sorts of denom groups, yet they aren't defined by what church building they go to or what creed they hold, but rather by the love and sacrifice they demonstrate. It's a neat picture; a positive microcosm of what can be...

 

[catlover]

We've talked about this in the past, and I still tend to agree with the Catholic & Orthodox folks on this one. Because the reformation "freed" us from the "chains" of tradition, papacy, etc., we are free to be our own popes and determine for ourselves what we "feel" the Holy Spirit is leading us. If I don't like this preacher or church, I'll just go find one that "suits", and hey if all of them suck I'll just form my own Bless God...

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the strife on the anabaptist forum; as small a body it is historically it's probably splintered way more times than any of the mainline groups...and each and every one believing they are doing God's bidding...and perhaps in certain ways they are? Yet splitting apart isn't really supposed to be part of the plan.

The factions are just part of the price we pay I suppose...though I think this group has the right idea, simply being hands and feet and loving our neighbor even to the point of moving into the inner cities to become part of the community...and they are a collection of all sorts of denom groups, yet they aren't defined by what church building they go to or what creed they hold, but rather by the love and sacrifice they demonstrate. It's a neat picture; a positive microcosm of what can be...

But the Pope's office is an example of how absolute power corrupts. I look at what happened in Boston and how Cardinal Law was brought to Rome and he has a lovely apartment and wonder what the heck?

On another web site Beliefnet, and ex Trappist has a story about how he complained about sexual improprieties of a monk and he was kicked out and was told to tell everyone the reason he was kicked out was because he was "disobedient".

Funny thing is, I have an Uncle who was in seminary and did not finish. When I asked him why, he stated he was "disobedient".

So it got me thinking.

We are not running around being our own popes. We are questioning those in authority. Those in authority may or may not be following Christ.

 

[MrJim]

But the Pope's office is an example of how absolute power corrupts. I look at what happened in Boston and how Cardinal Law was brought to Rome and he has a lovely apartment and wonder what the heck?

On another web site Beliefnet, and ex Trappist has a story about how he complained about sexual improprieties of a monk and he was kicked out and was told to tell everyone the reason he was kicked out was because he was "disobedient".

Funny thing is, I have an Uncle who was in seminary and did not finish. When I asked him why, he stated he was "disobedient".

So it got me thinking.

We are not running around being our own popes. We are questioning those in authority. Those in authority may or may not be following Christ.

Those questioning the authorities may or may not be following Christ either.

And so where has all the questioning got us? For all the problems in the RCC there are plenty of issues in the Protestant churches too. Find a priest pedophile and there's a minister pedophile around the corner. Chaff and wheat will always be mingled until that final day.

My point is that we really have no authority to answer to except "God", and I put that in quotes because we tend to draw God into whatever we best understand. So we call our own shots, challenge anyone that questions us, question anyone that challenges us, and meander in the morass of self rule. Corrupt papacy? We are all corrupt...corrupted in self righteousness that sets ourselves as the spokespersons of God when we can't see past our bellybuttons. Easy to say j'accuse to a pope but somehow won't remove the 2x4 from my eyeball...

Yeah, denoms suck. My heathen little brother once asked me why there just can't be a little church on the corner that has a sign on it that says "Church". I had no answer. People get together in agreement on certain practices, form together, write it down, and next thing ya know there's a denom. And the founders, if they saw what came of the group they formed, more often than not would probably repent of ever doing it. But I guess for now it is what it is.

This then is what the "emerging church" movement is trying to get out from under. They view the institution as a huge burden. Unfortunately I think it will be as splintered as anything else...

 

[catlover]

WARNING: not trying to pick a fight just getting spirited.
Looking to discuss with civility. If you take offense to a post, please let me know I will change the wording. NO offense is intended no malice.

Those questioning the authorities may or may not be following Christ either....

That's not the point, the point is, people should be able to question authority in The Church. If one can't that leads to those in authority abusing their power.

And so where has all the questioning got us? ...

A clear conscious.

For all the problems in the RCC there are plenty of issues in the Protestant churches too. Find a priest pedophile and there's a minister pedophile around the corner. Chaff and wheat will always be mingled until that final day.

Pedophelia is not covered up and protected by those who claim to be Christ's mouth piece and a central authority. That was the issue: those who questioned and made waves about it were seen as "enemies" of the church.

My point is that we really have no authority to answer to except "God", and I put that in quotes because we tend to draw God into whatever we best understand. ...

Doesn't God meet with us on our own terms and understanding? God can meet with a person with an I.Q of 72 or a person with an I.Q of 175.

So we call our own shots, challenge anyone that questions us, question anyone that challenges us, and meander in the morass of self rule. ...

If we are afraid to defend our beliefs then there is something wrong. Questions enforce beliefs. Or either these questions point out a wrong and we learn.

Corrupt papacy? We are all corrupt...corrupted in self righteousness that sets ourselves as the spokespersons of God when we can't see past our bellybuttons. Easy to say j'accuse to a pope but somehow won't remove the 2x4 from my eyeball......

The big difference is. Many don't claim to be a Vicar of Christ. Many don't claim our authority is of God's and how dare you even think of questioning me.

Yeah, denoms suck. My heathen little brother once asked me why there just can't be a little church on the corner that has a sign on it that says "Church". I had no answer. People get together in agreement on certain practices, form together, write it down, and next thing ya know there's a denom. And the founders, if they saw what came of the group they formed, more often than not would probably repent of ever doing it. ......

Why would someone repent for seeing a wrong, pointing it out, not seeing it corrected and righting the wrong?

This then is what the "emerging church" movement is trying to get out from under. They view the institution as a huge burden. Unfortunately I think it will be as splintered as anything else...

I tend to believe a powerful institution is a burden. You look at the public school system in The U.S and it's an institution. It's a joke. You can't use it...so why should a world wide religious institution be any different?

 

[MrJim]

WARNING: not trying to pick a fight just getting spirited.
Looking to discuss with civility. If you take offense to a post, please let me know I will change the wording. NO offense is intended no malice.




That's not the point, the point is, people should be able to question authority in The Church. If one can't that leads to those in authority abusing their power.

Ask the RC folks, they'll tell ya that authority is questioned all the time. It's surprising just how much so...and even in my local baptist church authority is challenged, and sometimes I think to the point that leadership is a little crippled and sorta doing what the "people want"...which may work for a government but am not sure a church (of any size/denom) can operate that way.


A clear conscious.

I'm not resting to well with a clear conscience...



Pedophelia is not covered up and protected by those who claim to be Christ's mouth piece and a central authority. That was the issue: those who questioned and made waves about it were seen as "enemies" of the church.

Yeah, there are issues there, but they are being worked on...I'm not trying to defend their actions.


Doesn't God meet with us on our own terms and understanding? God can meet with a person with an I.Q of 72 or a person with an I.Q of 175.
Yeah, you are right, but consider that if left alone without proper teaching and leadership we are all left to create our own God. Consider what the entire church looks like, from a little house church to St Peter's, and not everyone can be right, can they? Well...maybe...if people are grabbing little bits of God and hanging on to that particular picture thinking it's the whole thing...no that still doesn't work.
If we are afraid to defend our beliefs then there is something wrong. Questions enforce beliefs. Or either these questions point out a wrong and we learn.

Apologetics are a necessary part of the church; my point referred more to the cafeteria approach to the faith in that we pick and choose what to believe and do and "don't judge me" sort of thing.

The big difference is. Many don't claim to be a Vicar of Christ. Many don't claim our authority is of God's and how dare you even think of questioning me. I sorta see this mentality all the time, particularly around CF...

Why would someone repent for seeing a wrong, pointing it out, not seeing it corrected and righting the wrong?

I think the institution would be too big for change...and even God repented of creating man way back when...

I tend to believe a powerful institution is a burden. You look at the public school system in The U.S and it's an institution. It's a joke. You can't use it...so why should a world wide religious institution be any different?

I agree; I homeschool my boys for this very reason.

I have no answers on this issue; I'd like to embrace Rome but can't get past St Peter's and all the wealth and pomp...I'd like to embrace the Orthodox but can't get past kissing paintings and the foreign "eastern" thing...I'd like to embrace the home church, but it comes off a little too risky and unsure...and I don't like to be all alone in this church deal either. Ashes always tells me to get past the form and institution and just serve Christ where I'm at so that is where I'm at right now...this topic though always cranks me a little.

 

[catlover]

I agree; I homeschool my boys for this very reason..

More power to you. I tried unsucessfully to homeschool, but quickly found out the public school system is a broken system. It's only for the naturally smart and athletic...big deal those people will go far in life anyway.

Can you believe my daughter had so much trouble reading and still does. She was "observed" in the classroom by some person with a PhD in special ed and he could not find anything wrong with her...well...took my daughter to the eye doctor...she has a problem tracking with both eyes..BINGO there is the trouble with reading.
Of course my children have been out of public school 2 years and in a private Christian school. I have issues with their theology but am grateful they actually offer one on one help to both children. Something which is unheard of in the public school.

I have no answers on this issue; I'd like to embrace Rome but can't get past St Peter's and all the wealth and pomp.....

Maybe you can be more like the monks who take the vow of poverty. You can't be a monk, I know but they sort of have the same philosophy of simple living.Maybe that's the way you can see the church. You may find the truth in the Catholic Church.


Also this book was wicked good and I am sorry I gave it away.http://www.amazon.com/Lessons-Saint-Francis-Simplicity-Spirituality/dp/0452278341
The Lessons of Saint Francis: How to Bring Simplicity and Spirituality into Your Daily Life

I'd like to embrace the Orthodox but can't get past kissing paintings and the foreign "eastern" thing...

Have you found out why they do that? I really can't state why but maybe if you knew why you would be comfortable.

.I'd like to embrace the home church, but it comes off a little too risky and unsure..

I am trying it but have my reservations. Quakers are into the "inner light". I don't know if that is right.


.

.and I don't like to be all alone in this church deal either. Ashes always tells me to get past the form and institution and just serve Christ where I'm at so that is where I'm at right now...this topic though always cranks me a little.

Maybe you are at the 40 days of solitude in the wilderness like Jesus.

I can relate, I am pretty frazzled about finding a church.

 

[jsimms615]

Of denominations and all the stuff that goes along with denominationalism?

Yes, I think we should realize that God is bigger than any one denomination.
I am a believer first and foremost. Christ is above all.

 

[catlover]

Yes, I think we should realize that God is bigger than any one denomination.
I am a believer first and foremost. Christ is above all.

My biggest question to God is, "What do you want me to do? What do you want?" Not like what do you want? but what is right?

 

[MrJim]

Maybe you can be more like the monks who take the vow of poverty. You can't be a monk, I know but they sort of have the same philosophy of simple living.Maybe that's the way you can see the church. You may find the truth in the Catholic Church.

The "saints" draw me more than the popes or magesterium...but every tradition has their saints...ever hear of Amy Carmichael? She is an example of that life...yet not many outside of the church have ever heard of her.

Also this book was wicked good and I am sorry I gave it away.http://www.amazon.com/Lessons-Saint-Francis-Simplicity-Spirituality/dp/0452278341
The Lessons of Saint Francis: How to Bring Simplicity and Spirituality into Your Daily Life

I've not seen that one, but I've half a dozen St Francis books...he is an interesting example that I often wonder about-it's time for another St Francis, and I don't mean franscican monks, either.

Have you found out why they do that? I really can't state why but maybe if you knew why you would be comfortable.

I understand exactly why, it just doesn't seem...I don't know, something just strikes me funny when it comes to venerating icons. But who knows? Maybe that's it...

I am trying it but have my reservations. Quakers are into the "inner light". I don't know if that is right.

Quakers come in lots of flavors, but I've not met many conservative ones. Seems odd though to toss out all ordinances (communion, baptism) and trust "inner light". But maybe that's it?

Maybe you are at the 40 days of solitude in the wilderness like Jesus.

been a long 40 days...

I can relate, I am pretty frazzled about finding a church.

I guess I'm somewhat settled into this little baptist church I go too. Primary reason is because it's close. Always thought it odd to have to explain to a neighbor about coming to church, but ya have to travel 10 miles to get there and in the process pass-within a block-a dozen other churches. Now there is a Church of the Brethren (which is anabaptist) a couple of blocks up the street, and I've avoided them because of the reputation it has--being one of the more liberal CoBs around, but I guess I should stop listening to gossip. I always held the CoB in question since it's a member of the NCC, but then so is the American Baptist Church I go to

 

[ZiSunka]

I've not seen that one, but I've half a dozen St Francis books...he is an interesting example that I often wonder about-it's time for another St Francis, and I don't mean franscican monks, either.

Ever hear of Rich Mullins? He was a non-catholic St Francis, even down to the vows of poverty and chastity. He often described himself as a protestant monk.

 

[MrJim]

Ever hear of Rich Mullins? He was a non-catholic St Francis, even down to the vows of poverty and chastity. He often described himself as a protestant monk.

Heard of him, hadn't heard that part...interesting...

 

[RenewedbyFaith]

I get tired of "experts" who have no training or experience in a particular field that insist that everyone should look to them to be leaders in the church. They want to force their way at a young age, physically and spiritually young, to becoming an elder.

My BF's brother is an example of this. He's been a Christian for just a few years and hasn't really gone to Bible studies much and has certainly never gone to seminary, nor has he apprenticed himself to any pastor or Bible scholar. But he thinks he's an expert on deep subjects of the Bible. He will sit at a Bible study and go on about the hidden meanings of every passage they study. The other people politely listen, because that's the way Mennonites are, they won't confront someone directly, but inside we are all rolling our eyes wondering if he will ever realize that he's not only wrong, he's boring, too.

Unforunately, I think, that's the biggest problem with Anabaptism and the source of the problem Ashes pointed out about there being more than 500 divisions. In Anabaptism, absolutely everyone can consider themselves a great Bible scholar and preacher and start a new church based on what they feel is the leading of God. When Wayne and Dan say they are "neo-Anabaptists," they are living examples of this phenomenon. They want to create even more division by creating churches that agree with their own personal interpretation of the Bible and their own way of living out the Anabaptist life.

I'm personally at the point where it's making less and less sense to me to be a 21st century Christian. Anyone with cash can make a TV or radio show and get millions of followers who believe every word they say is gospel. Thousands of people out there are trying to "reform" the church by creating new divisions. Pastors aren't honored anymore unless they have written a bestselling book or have raised a congregation of thousands. Even websites like this one, where people form artificially close relationships with strangers who can make up any identity and personna they want, where these personnas create even more divisions based on personal interpretation, even within a single forum like this one. I'd like to know how many of you consider yourself to have close friends here at CF? I'd like to know how many of you even know those close friends in real life?

21st century life is filled with artificial intimacy like that. People spend hours a day cultivating internet relationships, but let their real relationships fall neglected. Here at CF, there are people who's homepages boast what city they live in, give their children's names, ages, photos of the kids, what school and church they go to, even what their teachers' names are sometimes. They post intimate details of their lives, like where they are going for vacation and when, what their car looks like, whether or not they are sleeping with their BFs and what that's like in detail, how much they hate their mother/sister/neighbor/sister-in-law, whether or not they can get along with their ex-wife. These are things that are shared with a friend, not an electronic stranger.

It's not like this all leads to more unity or happiness. All over CF and all over churches in general today, there is unhappiness, backbiting, anger, selfishness, and it doesn't seem like anyone can say, "I'm sorry" or "I'm wrong." They just come up with more "facts" or "historical record" to support them, even if they have to make up those facts or records. In the little time I've been here, I've seen forums divide over whether or not Peter wrote the book of Hebrews. I've seen one divide over whether or not a woman who's BF sleeps with other women should continue in the relatiosnhip. I've even seen one divide over whether or not one person's "dream prophesy" is more accurate than another person's "dream prophesy."

This is what the church has come to in the 21st century and the reason why Christianity doesn't have the authority it did in our parents and grandparents' day. Everyone is a Bible scholar and a pastor by their own authority. God isn't really needed. I can't remember the last time God was even mentioned in this forum. Or any other. CF is all about Christianity in all it's forms, but I don't find any place where it is about Christ or his teachings.

What about the love? They are supposed to know us followers of Christ by our love. But I don't see much love these days, and there certainly isn't any here in this forum.

 

[joyfulthanks]

I have no answers on this issue; I'd like to embrace Rome but can't get past St Peter's and all the wealth and pomp...I'd like to embrace the Orthodox but can't get past kissing paintings and the foreign "eastern" thing...I'd like to embrace the home church, but it comes off a little too risky and unsure...and I don't like to be all alone in this church deal either. Ashes always tells me to get past the form and institution and just serve Christ where I'm at so that is where I'm at right now...this topic though always cranks me a little.

Hi Menno,

I think sometimes you and I are kind of running in parallel circles. I, too, would love to be Catholic, but can't; would love to be Orthodox, but can't; don't really like being protestant, but can't seem to be anything else.

I don't know if this will mean anything to you or not, but the one thing I keep coming back to is this:

"Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s." (1 Corinthians 3:21-23, NKJV)

This scripture was spoken at the very beginning of the church regarding the divisions that were already surfacing.

I have found much that has helped me in a number of different places of Christ's church, Catholic and Orthodox included. Catholic devotional literature, for example (The Imitation of Christ, works by Francois Fenelon, the writings of Mother Theresa to name a few) are my favorites. I frequently pray Orthodox prayers. I am a member of a Methodist church and enjoy the community and active service that goes on there, but also commune almost weekly at a Lutheran church - whose liturgy I love (and because they have weekly eucharist). I also spent a large portion of my life as a non-denominational charismatic.

Now, many would say I'm just mixed up. However, I have come to believe that we are all different parts of Christ's body, with functions that vary accordingly. Since it is His body, and I am His child, whatever belongs to Christ belongs to me as his child (as per the scripture above). So I feel free to benefit (as much as they will let me) from all the different parts of Christ's body.

The idealist in me still desparately wants to find the perfect church, and I still keep banging my head trying to. However, I think the advice that Ashes gave you is good. Serve Christ wherever you are. But I think that you can also joyfully partake of the gifts of others, both of your own denomination, and of those who differ from you.

I don't know if this helps at all. Believe me, I haven't got it all worked out just yet myself.

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

 

[joyfulthanks]

Ever hear of Rich Mullins? He was a non-catholic St Francis, even down to the vows of poverty and chastity. He often described himself as a protestant monk.

This is true. However, from what I've read, he was in the process of converting to Catholcism at the time of his death. He was attending RCIA, and was only weeks from being received into the Catholic church.

-Grace