Do you believe the dead are conscious?

[Basil the Great]

So there will be online forums?

Rather than online forums, I suspect that there will be some sort of classes to attend, like in school. Who knows?

 

[timothyu]

I suspect that there will be some sort of classes to attend, line in school. Who knows?

What would classes accomplish in turning over our will to the will of the Father... something we were to do here now rather than later?

 

[IntriKate]

I believe that when we die we are immediately present with God.

 

[Religiot]

I'm curious what everyone believes about the dead and if they are conscious or if you believe they are sleep until the resurrection?

I read a book called are the dead alive now? Which says the dead are sleep until Jesus returns. So I just accepted that but recently I've had experiences that pretty much confirm to me that people are conscious pretty much instantly after they die. I don't really want to get too deep into those experiences but I'm wondering what you all believe?

The dead are dead, period; but those in Christ, are alive, even if they die, for to them, it is just sleep, because none in Christ can die, but all those outside of Christ, are indeed, already dead.

God's gift is eternal life: that wouldn't make much sense at all, if no one ever really dies.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @ImAllLikeOkWaitWat, the historic Christian Church (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.) has always held the doctrine of the sleep of the soul to be heretical. Our churches have consistently held this belief because of the Bible and what it teaches us about the Intermediate State.

For instance,

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”
8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

2 Corinthians 5
6 We are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.​

Here are some of the arguments that are made against the doctrine of soul sleep on the basis of the Scriptures that I just posted.

1) How can the Scriptures cited above be true if the dead in Christ remain unconscious with their bodies in the ground until the Bema Seat Judgment?​

2) How can those who are "absent from the body" "make it their aim" to do anything, much less to be well-pleasing to the Lord (in death, as they would be in life), if they/their souls are not conscious when they are with Him after they die?

3) How could Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ, if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying interred in an unconscious state until the end of the age?

4) How could the Apostle say that, "to die is gain", if dying means nothing more than lying dead in the ground with our bodies until the resurrection?

5) Finally, how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice", if their souls are not conscious in death ​

--David

 

[Albion]

I'm curious what everyone believes about the dead and if they are conscious or if you believe they are sleep until the resurrection?

I read a book called are the dead alive now? Which says the dead are sleep until Jesus returns. So I just accepted that but recently I've had experiences that pretty much confirm to me that people are conscious pretty much instantly after they die. I don't really want to get too deep into those experiences but I'm wondering what you all believe?

The conventional Christian view, shared by Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians, is that the soul continues to be conscious after death, and there is Biblical evidence for that view.

The other belief, called "soul sleep," is held by a small minority of Christians. That belief is considered by many academics and theologians to be an indicator of a religious cult.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

You know, I heard a rather interesting view that comes to mind. It's basically that the millennium kingdom exists in heaven and that when we die, we reign with Christ in heaven until the millennium kingdom ends and Christ revisits the earth. It was a very intriguing view.

 

[Religiot]

I think the most honest answer you will get is "I dunno". Realistically it could go either way although I lean towards the asleep until awakened in resurrection idea. But that would depend on whether we are a projection of this body or are someplace else but working through it. Does the data in a computer stay alive when the computer dies? It can be revived if put in a new machine. But even if in the cloud, is it active or dormant? How are we that much different? Dreams are a matter of processing the activities of the day or further back unresolved issues. But that is part of a functioning body so I doubt it could be used to justify activity for millennia until resurrection. After all, to the dead thousands of years would only be a blink of an eye from death to resurrection. Speaking of dreams, a split second can seem like hours in a dream, so who is to say that a few seconds of consciousness could not be interpreted as a life after death experience? While the body may seem rigid or decomposing, there are still cells that have not died weeks later. Is our consciousness in them? Would they scream in pain upon cremation?

Your statement makes me think of organ donation: in my research, I discovered, to my horror, that organs must be removed from a living body for viability; and the fact that most people don't know this was also horrifying, but I digress.

--The moment of death is actually still a mystery, but when it happens, there is no getting it back, and no organ is viable, not from anyone truly dead.

It's as if once the life is gone, it does not return, by any process.

PS: If you've got the stomach for it, go watch an actual organ harvest on youtube: they pronounce the person brain dead, and proceed to inject him with a paralyzing agent--required by law--and then open him up, with heart racing; and commence removing organs. (I didn't go to medical school, but a beating heart to me means the person is still alive.) They remove the heart last, of course. --The whole thing is just shocking.

 

[Religiot]

The conventional Christian view, shared by Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians, is that the soul continues to be conscious after death, and there is Biblical evidence for that view.

The other belief, called "soul sleep," is held by a small minority of Christians. That belief is considered by many academics and theologians to be an indicator of a religious cult.

Cults are secret, this view is not.

 

[HTacianas]

So then why the need for resurrection?

The resurrection in the end is the resurrection of the body.

 

[Tigger45]

I'm not completely sure. I haven't really studied it too much.

The OT talks about sheol which is the holding place of the dead. I would imagine something similar. I almost think there is something like a good place and a bad place that are holding places until the judgment. In other words, Abraham's bosom would be the good place and Hades would be the bad place but these places are different than the new heavens and new earth and the lake of fire.

@Tigger45, I'd be interested what you think of my alternative seen here.

As @St_Worm2 has already posted your narrative would easily outlined in

Luke 16

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

 

[Albion]

Cults are secret, this view is not.

Christian religious movements classified as 'cults' are not usually secret. You are thinking of a different use of that word.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

As @St_Worm2 has already posted your narrative would easily outlined in

Luke 16

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

Yeah, I was asking what you thought about there being a "holding place" that is similar in its respective natures BEFORE the judgement. Wondering how tenable you think my idea is.

 

[Tigger45]

Yeah, I was asking what you thought about there being a "holding place" that is similar in its respective natures BEFORE the judgement. Wondering how tenable you think my idea is.

I think it’s very tenable because it’s clearly evident in scripture.

 

[Albion]

If true, that would settle the soul sleep vs continuous consciousness debate on the side of consciousness, wouldn't it? So then the discussion would only have to decide on "where?"

 

[timothyu]

How many people think of themselves as an entity without a body to define themselves? How much of what you now believe would even be relevant or definable without a body?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

How many people think of themselves as an entity without a body to define themselves? How much of what you now believe would even be relevant or definable without a body?

People argue for consciousness all the time. That would be one thing it could be.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Yes, they are. God Himself has clearly revealed that at the moment of biological death, we leave our physical bodies and appear before God in judgement. He then allows us to proceed to the place of eternal existence we have freely chosen during our time on Earth - Heaven or Hell.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm curious what everyone believes about the dead and if they are conscious or if you believe they are sleep until the resurrection?

I read a book called are the dead alive now? Which says the dead are sleep until Jesus returns. So I just accepted that but recently I've had experiences that pretty much confirm to me that people are conscious pretty much instantly after they die. I don't really want to get too deep into those experiences but I'm wondering what you all believe?

Doesn't seem to me prudent to put too much stock into human conceptions of time passage. Even our scientists are saying that time is relative. To me it makes sense that to God, who is not constrained by time, time is almost irrelevant, a mere tool for his purposes. But we insist it is basic to reality.

As I see it, it makes perfect sense that when God created, he not only began things, nor only that he began things and sustatins things (or continues things). but that, from his point of view, he spoke the finished product into existence --the completed Bride of Christ.

Thus it makes sense to me to think that perhaps when we arrive we do so simultaneously with Adam and Noah and all those God has chosen for his own. I think 'soul sleep' is just a way to fit the human mind to the fact that time is not of essence the way we think it is.

We have a few odd accounts, my favorite perhaps the story of King Saul visiting the witch at Endor, who it seems was surprised when Samuel the priest actually shows up and converses with them. And Samuel did not seem particularly pleased to be there. He was not exactly pleasant toward Saul, but he mentions that by some time the next day, Saul and his sons would be with him (I take to mean dead, and in the same state, perhaps what we call 'soul sleep', Hades or Among The Dead. That at least, I think is what Samuel meant and what Saul probably took him to mean. That doesn't mean that they were not immediately upon death transported to the judgement, but that from our perspective all the dead go there simultaneously. I doubt very much that Samuel was aware of the passage of time, except maybe at that point where he was summoned up from the dead. To my mind, at least, it was to him like being momentarily awakened from a deep dreamless sleep.

 

[Religiot]

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”
8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

--Coincidentally, Moses and Elijah, are two, of only three men, taken up to heaven physically, other than the Lord.

Luke 16
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

--Obvious parable, in a long string of parables.

2 Corinthians 5
6 We are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Well, that is only a partial citation of the text, here is the full thought:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences." --2 Corinthians 5:1-11

According to the conclusions from the partial citation, the judgment Paul warns about in the full citation, is going on right now, and will continue until the last man (whether Christian or not is moot to the point I'm making here).

Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Simply, Paul's personal experience is not universal, or, secondly, he could very well be referring to what all Christians will experience personally, to be with the Lord on their dying day: in either case, this passage is not conclusive for either side of the argument.

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

This is, likely, the vision of the first resurrection, or, just as likely, the vision of some other event that requires more explanation: in either case, this passage alone is not conclusive, but would benefit greatly, from correlating passages from other books.

1) How can the Scriptures cited above be true if the dead in Christ remain unconscious with their bodies in the ground until the Bema Seat Judgment?

Well, that's easy, they are true, but not when partially cited, nor when cited out of context, as in this post.

2) How can those who are "absent from the body" "make it their aim" to do anything, much less to be well-pleasing to the Lord (in death, as they would be in life), if they/their souls are not conscious when they are with Him after they die?

Here you beg the question when you say, "if their souls are not conscious when they are with Him...": they are conscious when they are with Christ, this is everyone's assumption. The question instead ought to be, how can we be well pleasing to the Lord after we die?

Answer: cause we will be with Him after the resurrection.

3) How could Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ, if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying interred in an unconscious state until the end of the age?

Again, Paul's personal experience does not automatically mean that it will be our personal experience--that should be obvious from just a cursory reading of Paul's life: moreover, you fail to see that time is not a factor in these arguments, nor to Paul, for he asserts that we presently sit in Heavenly places with God--that assertion deals solely with what God knows about us, not what we know about God.

4) How could the Apostle say that, "to die is gain", if dying means nothing more than lying dead in the ground with our bodies until the resurrection?

When in despair, as he was often, death, to anyone, can seem as a relief, and that, especially to a Christian who has the hope of the resurrection: how much more to Paul, therefore?

5) Finally, how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice", if their souls are not conscious in death

Easy, they've been resurrected.