Do you believe in predestination ?

[rturner76]

"Murder" is your misnomer. . .God judged them with sickness and death so that they will not be finally condemned with the world.
How did Calvin get into this?

Don't blame 1 Corinthians 11:28-32 on Calvin. He didn't write it.

You have misinterpreted the scripture. It's about taking communion when you are in sin.

 

[TedT]

So when the Holy Spirit 'constrains us' what then ?

Sinners do not have free will; they are enslaved by the addictive power of evil. They are constrained from choosing righteousness, not by GOD but by the natural consequence of putting themselves under the power of evil. Since they have no free will, HIS constraints upon their sin are against their enslaved will, not their free will.

When we are reborn and our free will is restored to be trained in righteousness, if we are constrained it is by the permission implicit in our accepting Him as our saviour, granting Him our free will permission to do anything He needs to do to sanctify us.

 

[TedT]

A RIGHTEOUS God should have destroyed Adam and Eve THAT DAY just as He said.

NOT if HE had promised them election to salvation before the foundation of the world.

A JUST God should damn all of us and spare Christ.

NOT those whom Christ had promised by election to die for before the foundation of the world. Jn 3:18, believers (elect) who sinned and lost their faith are never judged but those who never believed (reprobate) are condemned already.

It is a MERCIFUL God that extends the gift of grace (UNMERITED FORGIVENESS) to anyone at all,

Indeed... HIS election promise of salvation was indeed part of HIS loving mercy.

it is a Sovereign God that WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER [HE WILL] HAVE MERCY, AND WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER [HE WILL] SHOW COMPASSION.

Isn't scripture wonderful??? !!!
But, HIS making Sovereign choices does not mean nor imply that HE did not have some good reason for electing some and for not electing those who did not measure up to becoming elect to be HIS Bride, that is, by sinning the unforgivable sin.

 

[TedT]

because if He only allowed people who love Him to be produced it would be just like the people were robots God wants people who love Him because they want to love Him not because that is the only possibility.

So my free will to choose holiness is contingent upon another's eternal life suffering in hell?? I don't think so.
I did not contend that if HE did not create those HE knew would end in hell because HE wanted to keep hell empty as scripture suggests, that those HE did know would repent and be redeemed had to do so by no free will decision of their own, ie, by HIS will, not theirs!!

Any difference between your pov and mine that HIS true knowledge of people in hell would restrain HIM from creating them is that some people would be missing but the rest of this system of our choices is fully in place.

There is no reason to think that some missing people demands that those not missing have lost their free will since they would just be the people HE knew would choose by their free will to become HIS Bride.

 

[TedT]

We change our decisions, that is what free will is all about.

Our ability to choose does NOT prove our wills are free because we constantly choose between evils. The ability to choose any of every option in the choice proves a free will and unreborn sinners are not free to choose righteousness...they do not have a free will.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sinners do not have free will; they are enslaved by the addictive power of evil. They are constrained from choosing righteousness, not by GOD but by the natural consequence of putting themselves under the power of evil. Since they have no free will, HIS constraints upon their sin are against their enslaved will, not their free will.

When we are reborn and our free will is restored to be trained in righteousness, if we are constrained it is by the permission implicit in our accepting Him as our saviour, granting Him our free will permission to do anything He needs to do to sanctify us.

Right - so the elect surrender their free will to Him...

 

[Clare73]

because if He only allowed people who love Him to be produced it would be just like the people were robots God wants people who love Him because they want to love Him not because that is the only possibility.

And you know this how?

 

[Clare73]

"Murder" is your misnomer. . .God judged them with sickness and death so that they will not be finally condemned with the world.

How did Calvin get into this?

Don't blame 1 Corinthians 11:28-32 on Calvin. He didn't write it.

You have misinterpreted the scripture.

Are you sure about that?

It's about taking communion when you are in sin.

No, it's about sinning when you take communion in a sinful manner.
The sinful manner being without recognizing the meal as a sacred event proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes (1 Corinthians 11:26), and eating the bread like it was an ordinary meal, which was sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27-29).

 

[rturner76]

Are you sure about that?
No, it's about sinning when you take communion in a sinful manner.
The sinful manner being without recognizing the meal as a sacred event proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes
(1 Corinthians 11:26), and eating the bread like it was an ordinary meal, which was sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27-29).

RIght, so it's not about God killing people who might sin. It's about communion like you said and people taking it in sin.

How did you get that God kills people from that text?

 

[Clare73]

RIght, so it's not about God killing people who might sin.
It's about communion like you said and people taking it in sin.

How did you get that God kills people from that text?

< sigh >

Are you paying attention?

See post #136.

 

[rturner76]

The "judgment" is sickness and death (falling asleep) so that they will not be finally condemned with the world.

The passage doesn't say any of that. Can you show me where it does?

Are you paying attention?

See post #136.

 

[Clare73]

The passage doesn't say any of that. Can you show me where it does?

< sigh >

When you show me specifically what you do not understand in post #136.

 

[rturner76]

< sigh >

When you show me specifically what you do not understand in post #136.

I think it's you that doesn't understand the passage. It says nothing of God intervening and killing potential sinners.

It talks about the natural consequences of living in sin. Where are you getting your information? It's not from the passage. You can't cut and paste the passage to say what you want it to say. You have to look at the entire context of thechapter.

He was talking to a CHurch where people continued in sin and he talks about the consequences of that. Saying GOd kills potential sinners is a stretch at best.

 

[Clare73]

I think it's you that doesn't understand the passage. It says nothing of God intervening and killing potential sinners.

It talks about the natural consequences of living in sin. Where are you getting your information? It's not from the passage. You can't cut and paste the passage to say what you want it to say. You have to look at the entire context of thechapter.

He was talking to a CHurch where people continued in sin and he talks about the consequences of that. Saying GOd kills potential sinners is a stretch at best.

Non-responsive to my request to show me what you do not understand about my post #136.

Please Biblically demonstrate my misunderstanding of the passage 1 Corinthians 11:28-32.

 

[TedT]

Right - so the elect surrender their free will to Him...

No sir, they have free will but from the knowledge learned in the sanctification process, Heb 12:5-11, they will never, ever, use their free will to chose to sin again. Just like the Trinity has a free will but will never use their free will to choose sin and the holy, elect angels have a free will but will never, ever, use their free will to choose to sin!

By their free will they will always make the righteous choice! That is the meaning of being holy, that is, fully sanctified.

 

[atpollard]

NOT if HE had promised them election to salvation before the foundation of the world.

How does God make a promise to an uncreated Adam before the foundation of the world?

God’s election before the foundation is 100% an internal GODHEAD thing.

 

[rturner76]

Non-responsive to my request to show me what you do not understand about my post #136.

Please Biblically demonstrate my misunderstanding of the passage 1 Corinthians 11:28-32.

I already did. You just have no response. I told you what the verses indicated and you cannot prove otherwise.

 

[Clare73]

I already did. You just have no response. I told you what the verses indicated and you cannot prove otherwise.

But you didn't demonstrate how I got it wrong according to the texts, you only asserted it.

Biblical assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

 

[TedT]

How does God make a promise to an uncreated Adam before the foundation of the world?

God’s election before the foundation is 100% an internal GODHEAD thing.

The same way HE elected all the elect before the foundation of the world...

Election WAS a promise:
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

1 Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
GOD PROMISED some people eternal life before the world began and that promise included their salvation.

 

[rturner76]

But you didn't demonstrate how I got it wrong according to the texts, you only asserted it.

Biblical assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

If you need more help I am willing to help you.

28 But let a man prove himself, and so let him eat of the bread, and drink of the cup.
People in sin should not take communion
29 For he that eateth and drinketh, eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself, if he discern not the body.
When they do they eat and drink condemnation on themselves
30 For this cause many among you are weak and sickly, and not a few sleep.
people often die in their sinful ways
31 But if we discerned ourselves, we should not be judged.
If we live right, we will not be judged by God
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
The penalties of our sin brings us back to the Lord.

Nothing said about God killing people who MIGHT sin. Are there any other verses in the Bible that back up that claim?