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I agree but...The idea that God would overpower people’s free will in this matter is out of the question, for love that is coerced is not love at all, and God does not treat us as mere puppets.
TedT replied [post #84], "This philosophical definition of omniscience would seem to contradict the scripture verses which claim HE does not want anyone to die in hell (Ezekiel 33:11, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9) but some do die implying that IF HE KNEW before their creation who would end in hell, Or do we believe HE knowing created those who would end in hell against these verses which uphold HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just?"
Or do we believe HE knowing created those who would end in hell against these verses which uphold HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just?"
My Reply :
You stated, "Or do we believe HE knowing created those who would end in hell against these verses which uphold HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just?""
It appears to me that there are many reasons to believe that God knowingly created some who would end in hell. However, the core question here is , "who should be held accountable for those who end up in hell?... God or man? ... I hope and pray that you would put that blameworthiness on man rather than God. The claim that God cannot be loving and yet be just in casting any person into hell is perhaps the leading argument that the atheists appeal to for rejecting the God of the Christian faith. [I'm not saying that you are making that assertion].
Of course there is another avenue that some take which would seemingly eliminate this "dilemma."[i.e. a loving God sending His creation to hell] ... that being the embracing of universalism [i.e. - all of God's creation will at some point in the future be reconciled to Him with none spending an eternity in hell]. However, the scriptural evidence presented for this view [in my opinion] is very weak in comparison to the other leading perspectives on the nature of hell.
From my perspective, God has decided to actualize a world in which the optimal number of people would freely receive His free gift of eternal life. God will never force or override a person's decision in the matter of salvation. The decision on God's part to grant this choice to His creation in no way diminishes His sovereignty; rather, God has sovereignly decreed it so. In the end, although God desires everyone to be saved, if a persons fails to respond to the pleadings and drawing of the Holy Spirit during their lifetime, they have no one to blame but themselves for their tragic fate.
God does not overpower our free will when he saves us.The idea that God would overpower people’s free will in this matter is out of the question, for love that is coerced is not love at all, and God does not treat us as mere puppets. So God cannot be faulted for not creating a world with a better balance of saved and lost; such a world was not feasible for Him. From my perspective, there is no feasible world of free creatures having a more optimal balance between saved and lost than this one.
No problem - we agree that absolute free will is a myth anyway it seems.
Then why did HE create those HE knew would end in hell without HIS grace, without contradicting HIS nature as loving, righteous and just nor HIS desire that no one dies???I would say that it is based on what God wants in that He knows everything that has or ever will happen.
Asked and answered in Romans 9.Then why did HE create those HE knew would end in hell without HIS grace, without contradicting HIS nature as loving, righteous and just nor HIS desire that no one dies???
EXACTLY!! The exact response I was looking for! I think most of us agree unless your ideology demands you reject it. HIS sovereignty is a product of HIS nature so it cannot trump HIS attributes of being loving, righteous and just which demands our free will as an absolute necessity to beAnd there by eliminate all free will and reduce man to a robot, do as I want or you will not exist. Love is not love if it is forced or if it is the only possibility. God wants true love from people who love because that is what they want to do.
HE changes our sinful decisions all the time (unless you have never been held back by conscience from a sin) but, imCo, our free will decisions, as opposed to our sinful decisions, are sacrosanct, inviolable and never changed hence, in part, the unforgivable sin.God does not change our decisions.
A common argument but please consider:Therefore God knows everything, past, present, and future.
MY Christian thoughts on HIS foreknowledge:This is about the meaning of God's "foreknowledge" as used in Scripture. . .
...but HE is not sovereign over HIMself, ie, HIS sovereignty is a product of HIS nature so it cannot trump HIS nature as loving, righteous and just.God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent … in other words, completely sovereign.
MY Christian thoughts on HIS foreknowledge:
Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.
From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life.
GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, which Rom 8:29 defines predestination to mean and, as per Matthew 7:21 – 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ which tells us what knowing means, emphasising the idea that loving is knowing and knowing about has no love.
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
Jesus obviously knew about the demons and knew about the miracle workers but this knowing contained no love as it is plain, He never knew them.
Agreed. . .This means that to foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.
On nothing more than his choice to do so (Romans 9:18), just as he did with Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:11-13), where he chose Jacob because he had elected Jacob (Romans 9:11) based simply on his sovereign right to do so (Romans 9:14-18).Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD "before life" love some and not the rest?
I worship the God of the Bible, rather than my own image of him.I don't think God predestines people to hell. I worship a loving God, not a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].
I believe God may choose certain people to do certain things or lead them in that direction but he created nature and reality to take care of most day-to-day goings-on.
God may answer a prayer and make a change for someone but he gave us free will so we do what we want. We are created in his image so we can make things happen for ourselves.
God can kill whoever he wants no doubt. I just didn't know that was his thing. I thought he was more into giving life. My mistake I guess.I worship the God of the Bible, rather than my own image of him.
He is into giving eternal life and preserving it, in some cases even if it requires taking their human life to do so.God can kill whoever he wants no doubt. I just didn't know that was his thing.
I thought he was more into giving life. My mistake I guess.
Just sometimes? How often?He is into preserving the eternal life he has given, in some cases even if it requires taking their human life to do so.
Where exactly, enlighten me?Don't have a clue, you'll have to ask him. . .hopefully, it is rarely necessary.
We see it in 1 Corinthians
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