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The Catholic church must have invented the idea 100's of years before Christ... amazing!
Here's just one sample out of many possible, "In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever." (Enoch 10:13, Charles)
1 Enoch is demonstrably pre-Christian.
Completely! It originated with the Pagan Greeks. However it is not biblical.I will call your bluff. The reason why you can't and won't even try to place a date on it is because among the Jews, the idea of eternal suffering in hell was pre-Christian.
Completely! It originated with the Pagan Greeks. However it is not biblical.
Daniel 12:2Yaknow, except for Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 25:46.
You beat me to it.It seems fanciful histories did not bother to consult Judaic pre-Christian texts, among others....
I did not make that assertion at this juncture. I countered the claim that Catholics invented the idea when it already existed before Christ. That is the only claim Summa and I debunked here so far. Maybe we'll break down the text of Protestant Bibles to see whether it's true or not another day.this is utter nonsense......so because a few judaic texts espoused the idea of an eternal hell, it makes it so.
I did not make that assertion at this juncture. I countered the claim that Catholics invented the idea when it already existed before Christ. That is the only claim Summa and I debunked here so far. Maybe we'll break down the text of Protestant Bibles to see whether it's true or not another day.
The curse of the law is death. That is why Christ died on the cross, He paid the penalty of sin for us, the penalty of sin is death. See Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. If the penalty for sin was eternal torture in hell, that penalty would reamin unpaid for to this day, because Jesus Christ was not eternally tortured in hell to pay the price for our sins.From reading these threads and talking to people IRL, my rough estimate is that only one in ten people who identify as Christians believe that God returns a punishment of a curse for the violation of his law. "If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name, says the LORD Almighty, I will send a curse upon you." Mal. 2:2. Most Christians either believe that God will not take retribution on non-believers (the Evangelical view). Or, alternatively, that God will pour out his love upon nonbelievers and that this love is the fire of hell (the Eastern Orthodox view).
If there is no retributive, non-corrective punishment for crime from God, it undercuts the traditional Protestant understanding that Jesus was punished by the Father in our place. "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." Gal. 3:10-13.
From reading these threads and talking to people IRL, my rough estimate is that only one in ten people who identify as Christians believe that God returns a punishment of a curse for the violation of his law. "If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name, says the LORD Almighty, I will send a curse upon you." Mal. 2:2. Most Christians either believe that God will not take retribution on non-believers (the Evangelical view).
I've heard some E.O.er's try this out. The 'lake of fire' was 'prepared or made' for specific purposes of permanent containment/punishment/elimination. We know Love does no ill, so the notion then becomes 'the occupants' in the Lake of Fire punish themselves, which seems no more likely than them doing that here and now.Or, alternatively, that God will pour out his love upon nonbelievers and that this love is the fire of hell (the Eastern Orthodox view).
The latter does not prohibit the former in the above. For example most believers would see that atonement would not beneficially apply whatsoever for the devil and his messengers. From there atonement is viewed as either limited or universal to mankind.If there is no retributive, non-corrective punishment for crime from God, it undercuts the traditional Protestant understanding that Jesus was punished by the Father in our place. "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." Gal. 3:10-13.
The curse of the law is death. That is why Christ died on the cross, He paid the penalty of sin for us, the penalty of sin is death. See Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. If the penalty for sin was eternal torture in hell, that penalty would reamin unpaid for to this day, because Jesus Christ was not eternally tortured in hell to pay the price for our sins.
That should say "whole body thrown into Gehenna" (vs 29) and "whole body go off into Gehenna" (vs 30). Gehenna is not "Hell", Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. Look at how it says "Whole Body", if these verses supported the traditional view of hell, they would not say the body goes to hell. The traditional (false) view is that the soul goes to hell, not the body.Hell seems to be a popular subject. Is it Biblical? I have searched many English translations and cannot see how anyone can say that eternal punishment in Hell is not Biblical. Call it what you like, Hell, Lake of Fire, it is mentioned several times in the NT. Jesus said it is so horrifying that it is better to chop off body parts than to go there. How can it not be real? I hate to see anyone go to this place but many seem to be determined to get there.
Matthew 5:29-30
29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
I quoted Jesus. Who are you quoting? Should say?That should say "whole body thrown into Gehenna" (vs 29) and "whole body go off into Gehenna" (vs 30). Gehenna is not "Hell", Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. Look at how it says "Whole Body", if these verses supported the traditional view of hell, they would not say the body goes to hell. The traditional (false) view is that the soul goes to hell, not the body.
You weren't quoting Jesus, you were quoting a translation of what Jesus said. Here is the original for Matthew 5:29 and 30. Hell is a poor translation of Gehenna. Gehenna was a real place, a valley outside of Jerusalem.I quoted Jesus. Who are you quoting? Should say?
The message is clear.You weren't quoting Jesus, you were quoting a translation of what Jesus said. Here is the original for Matthew 5:29 and 30. Hell is a poor translation of Gehenna. Gehenna was a real place, a valley outside of Jerusalem.
εἰ δὲ ὁ ὀφθαλμός σου ὁ δεξιὸς σκανδαλίζει σε ἔξελε αὐτὸν καὶ βάλε ἀπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα σου βληθῇ εἰς γέενναν. καὶ εἰ ἡ δεξιά σου χεὶρ σκανδαλίζει σε, ἔκκοψον αὐτὴν καὶ βάλε ἁπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα σου εἰς γέενναν ἀπέλθῃ.
I've highlighted ge'ennan (Gehenna) for you.
I have no doubt that is true. Jesus was using it as an illustration of the eternal fire. Hell.Those are all translations. The original says Gehenna, not Hell. Gehenna is the Valley of Gehenna outside of Jerusalem. Gehenna literally means Ge (Valley) of Hinnom.
Gehenna is not "Hell", Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. Look at how it says "Whole Body", if these verses supported the traditional view of hell, they would not say the body goes to hell. The traditional (false) view is that the soul goes to hell, not the body.I have no doubt that is true. Jesus was using it as an illustration of the eternal fire. Hell.
Matthew 10:28
28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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