Do you believe in Creationism or Evolutionism?

Obviously both. The fossil record clearly demonstrates the fact of gradual biological evolution in already existing organisms, as well as in the physical environment and the atmosphere. However, it is equally obvious that nothing could evolve until it first existed. There is no possible scientific explanation for the initial origin of matter, energy, time and space, because science is limited to the natural universe, and the origin of the universe was not a natural event.

PloverWing said:

Oops, I just realized what forum I'm in. I assume the "Creationism" forum is meant to be a safe space for Creationists, without interruption from non-Creationists, so I'll withdraw from the discussion after this post.

I see lots of Creationists posting in other forums -- "Creation & Evolution" and "Physical & Life Sciences", for example. Not being a young-earth Creationist, however, I don't intrude upon the Creationism forum.

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Unfortunately it's not. You don't have to withdraw if you can be polite. This is again often not the case. I expect it on the open forum but I expect better in here.

BobRyan said:

On the contrary they teach that the Sabbath as given in the Bible is Saturday and is what was kept in the Bible according to God's Word - as it should be. They claim it was later edited by the traditions of the church to re-point it to week day 1.

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What you said is not contrary to what I stated. But Catholics today do not celebrate on Saturday as the Sabbath, but they celebrate on Sunday. They actually speak against SDA keeping the Saturday Sabbath in their article here:

What the Early Church Believed: Sabbath or Sunday?

You said:

But my point is that no matter that they think it can be edited by tradition - they still admit that the Sabbath commandment is included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34.

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The Bible is my go to guide for spiritual truth and it is not a particular set of beliefs held by a particular church. Romans 2:14 helps us to define what Moral Law is. For the Gentiles were able to keep the Law without having the Law. Here is the Moral Law defined in the dictionary.

Moral Law:


Source:
Definition of MORAL LAW

You said:

Just as with some Creationists and also atheists - they both agree that at one time the earth existed with no life on Earth - and then now we have the earth with a lot of diversity of life on it. The fact that the two groups do not agree on some details does not mean they do not agree on even a single detail.

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Not sure what your point is about mentioning this.

I am back.

I believe God created the earth, the ball of dirt and rock beneath the creation probably outside of time. I think trying to date it is pointless and that it probably gives off a very inaccurate age. It could be young, it could be old, perhaps age is the wrong question to even be asking, perhaps if it was made outside of time and is both young and ancient at the same time. I believe it sat like that, empty and void for as long as God wanted it to sit. A millisecond or 4 billion years does not bother me. If it was made in time there is nothing to say it didn't sit void for a very long time or a very short time. I see no reason why the rock can't be a different age to the creation upon it.

I then believe God started creating and in producing the light started time upon the earth. The creation was complete within 6 days.

I believe Adam, Eve, the garden, the fall and the global flood was literal.

I believe in no death (people and animals with a soul) before sin and that the garden and perfection there was a sample to mankind of what the new earth will be like. I also believe God created it knowing it would last a very short time.
I don't see how a fall into sin and death or the spirit is possible with any form of evolution.

I have very little thoughts on the shape of the earth but from seeing the roundness of the moon I believe it is round. I honestly don't believe the shape is important.

I believe there was one single creation upon the earth and there will be one literal remake of it by fire. I believe what happened early shows a shadow or a muddy picture of what is to come. Like a folded painting I believe it is patterned from Old to New Testament. Adam was tempted and fell into sin -Jesus was tempted and did not sin. The Israelite's put lambs blood on the doorpost -Jesus is the lamb of the world who gave his blood for all. This is yet another reason why I don't believe in evolution. It simply does not fit into this pattern. If the end is a perfect world, for me the start must have also been a 'perfect world'.

I believe the creation on the earth is anywhere from 6-15 thousand years old. I don't follow James Usher. I don't think a person has to adhere strictly to 6 thousand years to be a young earth creationist. The man had doctrine I disagree with so I don't feel he is as trustworthy as many people think he is. I don't think the Bible is meant to be used like a calculator. However many thousands of years old the creation is, I believe it is relatively young.

BobRyan said:

Augustine also thought the Bible was wrong about that and that God's creative ability was much better than a 7 day creation week. But of course God's speaking ability was much better than a 40 day period with Moses on the mountain top - so maybe the Bible got that wrong as well. Then of course infinite God could work the ministry of Christ on Earth in much less time than 3.5 years so maybe the Bible is wrong about that as well. This sort of revision has no end to it from what I can see.

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Why do you drag in something from Moses, to make a point about Genesis 1:1 when that has nothing to do with Genesis 1:1 Let me introduce you to Genesis 1:1 (since i guess you have never read it)
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

Read it it again and again and again till you can understand this simple verse.

Aussie Pete said:

I

I dislike being called an "-ist or that I subscribe to some form of "-ism". However, I do believe that life was created as stated in Genesis. Why? Not because I have some kind of "ism" or "ist" ace to grind. Rather, it is because I take God at His word.

I also believe that the earth was in existence already when God, as I see it, restored life to a devastated planet. Some people call this pre-Adamic creation. It's not a new theory (I do not presume to say that it is proven). It explains the apparent discrepancies between the supposed age of the earth and the calculated 6,000 years that the Young Earth school of thought believes. I believe that the earth was submerged by a flood prior to Noah's flood and that was the "waters" referred to in Genesis 1:2.

Evolution is the crutch of people who either don't know God or who are desperate to explain Him away. It is so far fetched (cue evolutionist outrage) that people need to suspend their normal common sense in order to accept evolution. As one well known professor at Monash University said, "We know that there is no God. Evolution is the only other explanation". My Bible tells me that the fool says in his heart that there is no God. No, I don't remember his name and that quote goes back many years.

Theistic evolution is equally implausible. How can man be made in God's image? How can man be a sinner? Character traits are not transmitted genetically. Neither are skills. My dad was a good boxer. I have no talent, no interest and no skill in boxing. So how come the human race is sinful?

In order to deny "God Created", you have to deny the Bible. If you deny the Bible, you have no basis for calling yourself a Christian. When an ape taps me on the shoulder and asks, "Am I my keeper's brother?", I may change my mind. I'm not holding my breath.

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Am I my brother's keeper?

BobRyan said:

Definition of CREATIONISM
"Creationism: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis "

For the sake of this thread - the way the Bible describes creationism in Genesis 1:3-2:4 is that in 6 evenings-and-mornings God created
the Sun
the moon,
our atmosphere,
and all life on Earth with man and all land animals created in a single "evening and morning" day 6.

So then clearly that belief in creationism is not also belief in evolutionism by any stretch and no text on evolution defines it as stated in the creationist text... "The Bible".

Since this is the "Creationism" forum ... so my question is ... do we actually have any creationists posting here - where the term is defined by that Bible definition?

(I am posting this thread because it is starting to look like there are very few if any actual creationists posting here in this forum ... as in "not a believer in evolutionism" ... is it all just evolutionists here?)

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You left an option out. You should have asked "Do you believe God created the heavens and the earth from the beginning of time?"
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BobRyan said:

Definition of CREATIONISM
"Creationism: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis "

For the sake of this thread - the way the Bible describes creationism in Genesis 1:3-2:4 is that in 6 evenings-and-mornings God created
the Sun
the moon,
our atmosphere,
and all life on Earth with man and all land animals created in a single "evening and morning" day 6.

So then clearly that belief in creationism is not also belief in evolutionism by any stretch and no text on evolution defines it as stated in the creationist text... "The Bible".

Since this is the "Creationism" forum ... so my question is ... do we actually have any creationists posting here - where the term is defined by that Bible definition?

(I am posting this thread because it is starting to look like there are very few if any actual creationists posting here in this forum ... as in "not a believer in evolutionism" ... is it all just evolutionists here?)

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Affirming of the 7 day creation week is found in several places in His word ... that is ... referring directly back to Genesis ... the 7th being the Sabbath God created for mankind. The number 7 and or it's multiples/variations (i.e. seventh, seventy. sevenfold etc.) is used frequently throughout His word .... this is not coincidence people!

There is no celestial reason(s) for a 7 day week ... or any other reasons a 7 day week was established ... other than taking Gods creation week into account ... with Him resting from His work on the 7th day. Jesus created the 7th day and is Lord of it ... so He says so Himself.

All throughout His word He is reminding us of the 7th day of creation in many many ways, yet many dismiss these reminders.

The creation of the 7th day firmly establishes Him as the creator of everything.

Yes ... 7 literal days ... creation in 6, resting on the 7th ... a day He created for mankind and sanctified and blessed.

BobRyan said:

Definition of CREATIONISM
"Creationism: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis "

For the sake of this thread - the way the Bible describes creationism in Genesis 1:3-2:4 is that in 6 evenings-and-mornings God created
the Sun
the moon,
our atmosphere,
and all life on Earth with man and all land animals created in a single "evening and morning" day 6.

So then clearly that belief in creationism is not also belief in evolutionism by any stretch and no text on evolution defines it as stated in the creationist text... "The Bible".

Since this is the "Creationism" forum ... so my question is ... do we actually have any creationists posting here - where the term is defined by that Bible definition?

(I am posting this thread because it is starting to look like there are very few if any actual creationists posting here in this forum ... as in "not a believer in evolutionism" ... is it all just evolutionists here?)

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a resounding "other"
the creation account is far deeper than the OP is letting it be and we do an injustice to it when only look at its surface. the literalness of the account is the most unimportant and uninteresting part of the biblical creation account, so much so that we miss the point when we squabble over it like children ultimately sounding like a bunch of clanging cymbals. I am a believer and follower of the all-powerful God and creator of all things who far surpasses the little box the OP has built to such a degree I do not even recognize the god forced in that box.

eleos1954 said:

Affirming of the 7 day creation week is found in several places in His word ... that is ... referring directly back to Genesis ... the 7th being the Sabbath God created for mankind. The number 7 and or it's multiples/variations (i.e. seventh, seventy. sevenfold etc.) is used frequently throughout His word .... this is not coincidence people!

There is no celestial reason(s) for a 7 day week ... or any other reasons a 7 day week was established ... other than taking Gods creation week into account ... with Him resting from His work on the 7th day. Jesus created the 7th day and is Lord of it ... so He says so Himself.

All throughout His word He is reminding us of the 7th day of creation in many many ways, yet many dismiss these reminders.

The creation of the 7th day firmly establishes Him as the creator of everything.

Yes ... 7 literal days ... creation in 6, resting on the 7th ... a day He created for mankind and sanctified and blessed.

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The Jews were very keen on numerology. Numbers like seven, three and forty are very common. Forty means an unknown period of time, the Bible tells us they were in the wilderness for 40 years, and basically they are telling the reader they were in the wilderness for an unknown period of time.

According to Jewish tradition the creation of Adam, occurred on September 26, 3760 B.C.

This is not when the earth was created. If we do not understand these things we are going to make a real hash of things. This has already happened and good genuine people are turning the Bible into a book of disrepute. Suffice it to say the word for day, which is "yome" means an unknown period of time, anything from a few hours to eternity and everything in between.

So the Bible is telling us the earth was created in six stages or era. Universe time is not earth time.
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BobRyan said:

Suppose we read "The literalness of the incarnation is the most unimportant and uninteresting part of the biblical account"

Suppose we read "The literalness of the life and ministry of Christ the most unimportant and uninteresting part of the biblical account"

Suppose we read "The literalness of the death and resurrection of Christ is the most unimportant and uninteresting part of the biblical account"

How much of the Bible could be treated in that way as if it were a good thing?

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the creation account affirms all of those things but you missed it because you couldn't get past the 7 days.

BobRyan said:

Moses wrote Genesis

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if so he wrote it 2500 years after it happened.

1an said:

The Jews were very keen on numerology. Numbers like seven, three and forty are very common. Forty means an unknown period of time, the Bible tells us they were in the wilderness for 40 years, and basically they are telling the reader they were in the wilderness for an unknown period of time.

According to Jewish tradition the creation of Adam, occurred on September 26, 3760 B.C.

This is not when the earth was created. If we do not understand these things we are going to make a real hash of things. This has already happened and good genuine people are turning the Bible into a book of disrepute. Suffice it to say the word for day, which is "yome" means an unknown period of time, anything from a few hours to eternity and everything in between.

So the Bible is telling us the earth was created in six stages or era. Universe time is not earth time.
.

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evening and the morning .... self explanatory .....

Hebrew yom indicates a 24 twenty-four hour day, when used in connection with number or night or evening or morning.

BobRyan said:

Moses wrote Genesis

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BobRyan said:

I think we both agree with that point.

My point is that they affirm all ten of the ten commandments in their documents including the Sabbath commandment as being included (though edited to point to week-day-1). They don't claim that some people think it was saturday and some think it was sunday -- rather they agree it was saturday as given in the Bible and that what the Bible calls the first day of the week upon which Jesus was raised from the dead -- is what we call Sunday... so that still makes the 7th day Saturday.

My initial point was not about which day is what -- just that all ten of the ten commandments are included in the moral law of God according to the Bible and agreed to by groups on both sides of the topic as noted in my signature line.

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There wasn't even a calendar back then.
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