Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[listed]

We can discuss that on this thread if ya like

http://www.christianforums.com/t7326950-11/#post50011260
New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8

Hebrews 8:6 and now he hath obtained a more excellent service, how much also of a better covenant is he mediator, which on better promises hath been sanctioned,
7 for if that first were faultless, a place would not have been sought for a second.
8 For finding fault, He saith to them, `Lo, days come, saith the Lord, and I will complete with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, a new covenant,

Certianly. I'm not attempting to give a discussion here about this point. I was asked to show NT Scripture proving new law. It is necessary to point out some specifics of the verses.

 

[tzadik]

You can't? What does new mean?

New Covenant means new agreement, not new law. When oh when will you understand that…

We also have John 15:10 and I John 3:23. Both show new law and laws (commandments).

Are you serious? Messiah says NOTHING new here, both of these “commands” have been issued way before Messiah (or John) re-issued them here. So your point here is mute.

Both use the word commandment(s).

What words does Messiah use in Matthew 5:17-20, repeated in Luke 16:17 and partly accomplished in Revelation 21:1? So the burden is on you to prove whether or not heaven and earth have already passed away---aka—Revelation 21 has already come to pass. If not, then all your arguments fall straight to the ground.

Jesus tells Nicodemus that one must be born again, not follow the law.

AGAIN maybe for the last time---keeping/following the Law of God is INSTRUCTION INSTRUCTION INSTRUCTION! YES you must be born again in the Spirit. Yes you must repent you’re your own ways, yes you must believe and trust in Messiah, but it doesn’t STOP there. Now you must walk in newness of life. Now you must follow God’s ways. Now you must DO God’s WILL! Why is this so hard for you to grasp? If you repent, but don’t turn away and STOP doing your own ways and follow HIS, you haven’t done ANYTHING!

Jesus says He is the door and anyone who tries something else is a theif - John 10. Jesus says the only way to access the Father is through Him - John 14. Jesus doesn't give any other options.

Again. SAME THING.
Yes come in at the one and only door, but does it stop there? Can you as a lamb come into the flock and still do your own sheep thing? NO.
You MUST listen to the voice and commands (ALL OF THEM) of the One and Only Shepherd!
That’s exactly what John 3:36 tells us. It’s not simply about “becoming part of the flock”, but obeying the voice of the shepherd! LIVING ACCORDING TO HIS WORDS! (Matthew 4:4)

Do you read the forum or just post nonsense about a post you quote? Is Hebrews 8:6 in your Bible? It is in everything I have or can find. If it isn't according to what was established, how can it not be new? The statement is found in both Jeremiah and Hebrews in all my Bibles and those I can find.

If there is no new law then Jesus must be lying in Mat 5:23 and John 13:34. John must be lying in I John 3:23.

OR perhaps you should use common sense and the original language to find out if it really means “NEW as in FIRST TIME IT”S BEING COMMANDED!”

Sure do understand what God's law is perfect means. I also understand that one can't possess eternal life by submission to that law as in the OC law. See Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:8-11.

I sure do understand what God's law is spiritual means. Do you? Does it mean the law is applied and required persormance of the fleshly body as a condition of salvation? NO! The flesh is never redeemend, the soul is though.

salvation salvation salvation. Justification justification justification.
I’ve yet to find ANYONE who can show me where God’s Law and His commandments are NOT apt for teaching, instruction, reproof, correction and TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS (2 Timothy 3:16-17) equipping me, just like it equipped David, Paul, Moses, Daniel, everyone who followed God’s ways in doing good works!

Yes I do understand what God's law is truth means both the OC law and the NC law which aren't the same. Again I refer everyone to Jer 31 and Heb 8.

No such thing as a “OC law” and a “NC law”. It’s made up. Make believe.

Yes I understand what God's law is His word is. Do you understand that Jesus (God) changed this law. Why do you demand that My law is exclusively the covenant made with the COI at Sinai?

Because HE ONLY HAS ONE LAW. It’s perfect, therefore NOT replaceable!

I give you Hebrews 8 to disprove and refute your position of a new law and not an improved law.

Ok how about you show me using Scripture (or even without using Scripture) what this “NEW LAW” is and which commandments it contains…
Go ahead. I’m very curious to see this new law containing new commandments.

 

[listed]

I also would point him to this thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7578720-57/#post58058160

The law is for dead people. lol...

.

Yes there are some good discussions about the points. You seem to know about every thread. Good work.

 

[tzadik]

Not lived by or list of rules to maintain our faith.

Yes salvation isn't static. That is why we are led by the Holy Spirit (a dynamic living force) and not the law a (static dead force). I point you to Romans 8, 12 and Gal 5.

The Holy Spirit guides us ACCORDING TO ALL OF GOD'S WORD.
Not just part of it.

 

[listed]

But NOT on better laws. There’s no getting around that

Ya know you're right. It isn't better laws but better promises. The laws of the OC are actually effective promises if one reads Deuteronomy 28-30.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Holy Spirit guides us ACCORDING TO ALL OF GOD'S WORD.
Not just part of it.

Seems I read that somewhere.....ahhh here it is

Reve 19:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1

*SNIP*
........ Now, what is meant by this term – THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB? The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12).

 

[tzadik]

Ya know you're right. It isn't better laws but better promises. The laws of the OC are actually effective promises if one reads Deuteronomy 28-30.

Oh brother.
Better promises doesn't change the Laws.

I told my daughter "if you stop biting your nails, daddy will get you a lollipop"

Now I think I want to up the reward..and say "if you stop biting your nails, daddy will get you a bike"

The better "reward/promises"doesn't change the 'instruction to not bite her nails'.

To assume that I will no longer say "don't bite your nails" but rather "don't scratch your eyes" ---simply because the reward/promise of obedience went from a lollipop to a BIKE ---is a COMPLETE grasping at straws.

 

[listed]

New Covenant means new agreement, not new law. When oh when will you understand that…


Are you serious? Messiah says NOTHING new here, both of these “commands” have been issued way before Messiah (or John) re-issued them here. So your point here is mute.

What words does Messiah use in Matthew 5:17-20, repeated in Luke 16:17 and partly accomplished in Revelation 21:1? So the burden is on you to prove whether or not heaven and earth have already passed away---aka—Revelation 21 has already come to pass. If not, then all your arguments fall straight to the ground.

AGAIN maybe for the last time---keeping/following the Law of God is INSTRUCTION INSTRUCTION INSTRUCTION! YES you must be born again in the Spirit. Yes you must repent you’re your own ways, yes you must believe and trust in Messiah, but it doesn’t STOP there. Now you must walk in newness of life. Now you must follow God’s ways. Now you must DO God’s WILL! Why is this so hard for you to grasp? If you repent, but don’t turn away and STOP doing your own ways and follow HIS, you haven’t done ANYTHING!

Again. SAME THING.
Yes come in at the one and only door, but does it stop there? Can you as a lamb come into the flock and still do your own sheep thing? NO.
You MUST listen to the voice and commands (ALL OF THEM) of the One and Only Shepherd!
That’s exactly what John 3:36 tells us. It’s not simply about “becoming part of the flock”, but obeying the voice of the shepherd! LIVING ACCORDING TO HIS WORDS! (Matthew 4:4)


OR perhaps you should use common sense and the original language to find out if it really means “NEW as in FIRST TIME IT”S BEING COMMANDED!”

salvation salvation salvation. Justification justification justification.
I’ve yet to find ANYONE who can show me where God’s Law and His commandments are NOT apt for teaching, instruction, reproof, correction and TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS (2 Timothy 3:16-17) equipping me, just like it equipped David, Paul, Moses, Daniel, everyone who followed God’s ways in doing good works!


No such thing as a “OC law” and a “NC law”. It’s made up. Make believe.

Because HE ONLY HAS ONE LAW. It’s perfect, therefore NOT replaceable!



Ok how about you show me using Scripture (or even without using Scripture) what this “NEW LAW” is and which commandments it contains…
Go ahead. I’m very curious to see this new law containing new commandments.

You're more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

An agreement has contents because an agreement is a contract. A contract has enforcable contents effectively law and backed by law. Just violate a contract and pray your not sued in a court of law. One simply cant side step this fact. Please use a dictionary. They are even online so it is simple to google any word you wish to know about. It will give you several sources for definition.

It is nonsense to say that Jesus' commandments were issued before His sojourn on the planet. Read the Sermon on the Mount for instance where Jesus says but I say... in contrast to the law in the previou verse 22 of chapter 5. My commandments of John 15:10 aren't My Father's commandments. Otherwise Jesus would have said keep My Father's commandments like I do. Since there is a difference between those identify them. You can't prove they are the same because of John 15:10 and the structure of language either Greek or English. The other choice is to prove the text is poluted. I remember no such evidence. Please provide it.

Are you saying that Jesus failed in His mission and that He lied in LK 24:44 and John 19:30? The point isn't wheter or not the earth has passed away, but rather if the law has changed. The Scripture says the law has changed and if this isn't true then Jesus violates the law and is a sinner. How can God be a sinner?

Where does the law say one must be born again?

How is walking in the law walking in newness of anything?

What is it about Romans 8 and Galatians 5 you don't grasp (understand)?

Where does the Scripture say one becomes an Isrealite to aquire or manintain salvation as you imply? Are you obeying the words of the Shepherd or the law? And since you reference Mat 4:4, why are you discounting and throwing out the repeated phrase not under the law? Why won't you accept the NC that states - 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8.

This has been parsed more than once here in the forum. New in Jeremiah is chadash pronounced khä·däsh' whih is H2319 and different from H2318 which is spelled the same and pronounced differently in the transliteration.

The same is true of the word used in the Greek quote Kainos and neos. This is unmistakable. For those who whish to disagree the phrase in the following verses in each testament not according to backs this fact up by self defining the word new.

Who is disputing whether or not the law is usable for teaching? It leads us to Jesus Christ as the Scripture states. It has then done its job causing us to also see that we need serious outside help to have fellowship with God (possess salvation).

Really now. Just read the Gospels, Romans, Corinthians and Galatians for starters.

God's law you refer to here isn't the law issued to Israel at Sinai. You force it to be that though. Simply isn't true as I've already shown. To state as you have done is to throw the clear meaning of Jeremiah. The intended meaning is definitely replace with something different.

Why you won't accept this at all.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh brother.
Better promises doesn't change the Laws.

To assume that I will no longer say "don't bite your nails" but rather "don't scratch your eyes" ---simply because the reward/promise of obedience went from a lollipop to a BIKE ---is a COMPLETE grasping at straws.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7589108-4/#post60057199

Wizard of Oz Lollipop Guild - YouTube

 

[listed]

The Holy Spirit guides us ACCORDING TO ALL OF GOD'S WORD.
Not just part of it.

Why then won't you accept it? I provide the following -

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I haven't even gotten out of Romans yet. Nor did I pause to make the point with chapter 6 about being dead to the law and the raising of a new man. Why don't you accept this as the Word of God? You keep quoting Mat 4:4.

 

[listed]

Seems I read that somewhere.....ahhh here it is

Reve 19:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1

*SNIP*
........ Now, what is meant by this term – THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB? The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12).

Very good verse about taking away from the Book!!

 

[listed]

Oh brother.
Better promises doesn't change the Laws.

I told my daughter "if you stop biting your nails, daddy will get you a lollipop"

Now I think I want to up the reward..and say "if you stop biting your nails, daddy will get you a bike"

The better "reward/promises"doesn't change the 'instruction to not bite her nails'.

To assume that I will no longer say "don't bite your nails" but rather "don't scratch your eyes" ---simply because the reward/promise of obedience went from a lollipop to a BIKE ---is a COMPLETE grasping at straws.

Are better promises the same promises or even laws? Hardly! And anyone can easily see this.

Biting your nails isn't scratching your eyes if I understand English at all.

 

[tzadik]

Are better promises the same promises or even laws? Hardly! And anyone can easily see this.

Biting your nails isn't scratching your eyes if I understand English at all.

You don't get it.
I hope others will.

Nowhere does it say better Laws, on the contrary it says MY Law.
Everyone alive at the time of Jeremiah and even after knew what "God's Law" was.

21st century Christianity might've forgotten, but everyone who studies Scripture and understands Scripture as an agreeable unit knows that the Law of God is just that..THE LAW of God. The Torah of God.

The burden is on you to show me where Jer 31 or Heb 8 suggest a "NEW LAW" and show me what commandments are included and not included in said law...

 

[brinny]

You alone, there is NO ONE beside You...at Your feet i cry, in your arms i rest....

"No One Else"- Fernando Ortega - YouTube

 

[FredVB]

Faulty.

 

[FredVB]

Who said anything about annihilation of anything. The grace people have not thrown out or destroyed the OT. They have it in its proper perspective. The OC doesn't have power or authority over the NC. If it did we don't have a NC.

There are plenty of this antinomian position who say the Law is done away with. It was pointed out right after the post of what is quoted here that there is not something new replacing law in the giving of the new covenant, which consists of, with the saving message, the message of the way of salvation without having judgment that would come from being under law. Law is not done away in that. There is no further use for sacrifices of the old covenant, Jesus is the only high priest in the new, the Jews who came to be believing Christians are still Jewish with what it includes biblicallly, even being saved in grace, and gentile believers are to still have morality, shown in the old testament, as it is said with quotations from Christ, with what he further said.

 

[brinny]

how inexplicably blind and deaf are we...Father forgive us...

"Stricken, Smitten, and Afflicted" by Fernando Ortega - YouTube

Stricken, Smitten, and Afflicted

Stricken, smitten, and afflicted,
See Him dying on the tree!
'Tis the Christ by man rejected;
Yes, my soul, 'tis He, 'tis He!
'Tis the long-expected prophet,
David's Son, yet David's Lord;
By His Son, God now has spoken
Tis the true and faithful Word.

Tell me, ye who hear him groaning,
Was there ever grief like his?
Friends thro' fear his cause disowning,
Foes insulting his distress;
Many hands were raised to wound him,
None would interpose to save;
But the deepest stroke that pierced him
Was the stroke that Justice gave.

Ye who think of sin but lightly,
Nor suppose the evil great
Here may view its nature rightly,
Here its guilt may estimate.
Mark the sacrifice appointed,
See who bears the awful load;
'tis the Word, the Lord's Anointed,
Son of Man and Son of God.

Here we have a firm foundation,
Here the refuge of the lost;
Christ's the Rock of our salvation,
His the name of which we boast.
Lamb of God, for sinners wounded,
Sacrifice to cancel guilt!
None shall ever be confounded
Who on him their hope have built.​

 

[tzadik]

There are plenty of this antinomian position who say the Law is done away with. It was pointed out right after the post of what is quoted here that there is not something new replacing law in the giving of the new covenant, which consists of, with the saving message, the message of the way of salvation without having judgment that would come from being under law. Law is not done away in that. There is no further use for sacrifices of the old covenant, Jesus is the only high priest in the new, the Jews who came to be believing Christians are still Jewish with what it includes biblicallly, even being saved in grace, and gentile believers are to still have morality, shown in the old testament, as it is said with quotations from Christ, with what he further said.

I agree with most of what you have written here.
I do have one question. Honest question

Why did Paul offer up purification sacrifices/offerings in the Temple after his Nazarite Vow in Acts 21?
He was obviously following the commandments in Numbers 6 regarding the vow.
Could it be that the offerings that are "non-related" to sin, such as the purification offerings, guilt offerings, food, drink and peace offerings were not replaced...until they were unable to be performed due to no Temple?

 

[listed]

You don't get it.
I hope others will.

Nowhere does it say better Laws, on the contrary it says MY Law.
Everyone alive at the time of Jeremiah and even after knew what "God's Law" was.

21st century Christianity might've forgotten, but everyone who studies Scripture and understands Scripture as an agreeable unit knows that the Law of God is just that..THE LAW of God. The Torah of God.

The burden is on you to show me where Jer 31 or Heb 8 suggest a "NEW LAW" and show me what commandments are included and not included in said law...

Who said laws? I said better promises. I also said even laws to give you an easy understanding.

Tell you what tzadik you certianly don't act or post like the Bible is an agreeable unit. You pitch the OT as current and overruling the NT. What gives Senior tzadik? Most anybody I know likes the new anything over the old item. Few are willing to use muscle power on say a meat grinder when they can buy an electric one for 3 bills and pay to use it every time. There are some who would rather have life than death. What can I say?

Anybody who studies the Bible and not religion knows that new doesn't mean remodeled or that not according to means different. And neither mean new because it has been moved to a different site.

 

[listed]

There are plenty of this antinomian position who say the Law is done away with. It was pointed out right after the post of what is quoted here that there is not something new replacing law in the giving of the new covenant, which consists of, with the saving message, the message of the way of salvation without having judgment that would come from being under law. Law is not done away in that. There is no further use for sacrifices of the old covenant, Jesus is the only high priest in the new, the Jews who came to be believing Christians are still Jewish with what it includes biblicallly, even being saved in grace, and gentile believers are to still have morality, shown in the old testament, as it is said with quotations from Christ, with what he further said.

OK so it really is a I'm right and your wrong religious snot slinging contest. How any one can base an argument about truth on what the masses say will never come to the truth. Neither can you establish a lie by the same means. Of course a lie isn't the truth.

You use antnomian like they are pro sin.

Your post is so general with no support or phantom support I wonder if you're not really a politician.

Jesus said I give you a new commandment... in John 13:34. Maybe God doesn't know what He is doing, huh? Maybe John is lying and Jesus really didn't say that.

Look I have no problem with Christians being required to show good morals. I simply don't base that on the law. Take Gal 5:19-20 for instance. Or how about I Tim 1:9-10. Maybe I could trust you to use the law, lawfully. OTH I prolly should include verse 8 with 9 and 10. Doesn't the same sort of list appear in Romans 1 also? Did Jesus tell the adulteress to go and sin no more?

Didn't tazdik say the Bible is a unit? What does Isa 28:10 say? Isn't this demonstratable within the Book of the Law (Pentateuch)? Why don't or won't you come aboard with the full NC? Why do you pick and choose what you want to believe? Is it a vanity thing?