Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[John 07]

Messiah’s Words cannot supersede God’s Words

That's like saying the Logos of God cannot supercede the Logos of God.

The Logos of God comprises both OT & NT (and we all know who the Logos is, right?) Otherwise you'd have to say Moses under the inspiration of Holy Spirit didn't write the Logos of God. If that's the case then whose Logos did he write?


oh wait, if i'm not mistaken you hold to OT primacy or something like that?

 

[listed]

“NT” supersedes the “OT” is one of the most anti-Scriptural statements ever made.

I simply can't imagine this kind of statement resembling anything good.

 

[TruthWave7]

I simply can't imagine this kind of statement resembling anything good.

He said that in light of the fact that most of the Bible is the OT! Jesus and Paul quoted extensively from the OT! Does that make sense? Therefore why would anyone want to throw out the OT? Paul said "all scripture is profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness."

 

[listed]

He said that in light of the fact that most of the Bible is the OT! Jesus and Paul quoted extensively from the OT! Does that make sense? Therefore why would anyone want to throw out the OT? Paul said "all scripture is profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness."

Yes 69.23% of the books are in the OT. What does that prove? Nothing. And what else would Jesus quote besides the law, prophets and Pslams? If Jesus is being quoted what He said wasn't written. So I guess that you now claim the Gospels aren't the Scritpure either. Seeing that Paul wrote nearly half of the NT It wasn't quoteable either. Now Peter calls Paul's writings Scripture or on the same level as Scripture.

Since Jeremiah said God will make a new covenant and Jesus testifies to that fact by 4 witnesses (of which 2 are personal disciples of Jesus), why doesn't the NT/NC replace the OT/OC? When they changed the law from 70 MPH to 55 MPH in the 70s could one merely say I was obeying the previous law and be legal or authorized to disobey the current law? That is exactly what you're trying to get people to believe.

The other option is to show that there is more than one new covenant. I would like to know if there is such evidence. Please show me.

Since you asked why would anyone throw out the OT (I believe require to submit to) because Paul quoted it extensively, he is also the one who said to throw it (the law) out in Gal 4:30. Would you like to get into the replacement discussion provided in Hebrews as well? Hey Frogster has covered it very well. I have touched on it.

 

[FredVB]

Excuse me. You just went way to broad by including the prophets. However surely you must admit, the Mosaic law was fullfilled, and done away with? You mention morality, yet no one was ever moral under law, not in it's truest sense, or Christ died for no reason, Galatians 2:21. Surely you agree with the sciptures? I hope! Source.

With that you make my point. If the Law is done away (as if) than why not the Prophets? Both were said to last with the earth. And with your thinking, do you really think there should be no seeking to live morally? That seems rather like gnostics, who taught that it did not matter what their body was doing.

 

[listed]

With that you make my point. If the Law is done away (as if) than why not the Prophets? Both were said to last with the earth. And with your thinking, do you really think there should be no seeking to live morally? That seems rather like gnostics, who taught that it did not matter what their body was doing.

Who said anything about annihilation of anything. The grace people have not thrown out or destroyed the OT. They have it in its proper perspective. The OC doesn't have power or authority over the NC. If it did we don't have a NC. Jesus didn't say this is the remodeled covenant.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by tzadik “NT” supersedes the “OT” is one of the most anti-Scriptural statements ever made.

I simply can't imagine this kind of statement resembling anything good.

In what way?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7636374-21/#post59911068
Ot/nt, Oc/nc

Primarily, the OT was God's dealings with his people Israel.

Secondly, the NT was the advent/birth of Jesus Christ wherein God the Father's Promise is founded on better promises. -(Forgiveness of sins)-

What we want to do is reconcile the OT God with NT Revelation/Message.

That is I what I think, in theory.

 

[tzadik]

Who said anything about annihilation of anything. The grace people have not thrown out or destroyed the OT. They have it in its proper perspective. The OC doesn't have power or authority over the NC. If it did we don't have a NC. Jesus didn't say this is the remodeled covenant.

I have yet to find one single soul who can show me in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 where God says that the “NC” will have “BETTER” or even “NEWER” Laws.
This is nowhere to be found, do you know why?? Because there’s no SUCH THING as a “NEW LAW”.
God’s Law is perfect. Do you know what perfect means?
God’s Law is righteousness. Do you know what righteousness means?
God’s Law is spiritual. Do you know what spiritual means?
God’s Law is Truth. Do you know what Truth means?
God’s Law is His Word. Do you know what His Word means?
God’s Law is better than gold. Do you know what better than gold means?
God’s Law is sweeter than honey. Do you know what sweeter than honey means?
God’s Law is faithful. Do you know what faithful means?
God’s Law is a lamp and light to my feet. Do you know what a lamp and light to your feet are?

Give me ONE good reason, better yet ONE verse in the “NC” passage that even insinuates a NEW and improved Law of God?

 

[listed]

In what way?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7636374-21/#post59911068
Ot/nt, Oc/nc

The law people wish to make the OC the rule of faith. If one can't posess eternal life through the OC, how does it do what the NC does? If it can't give it how can it maintain it? What does my friend Jeremiah say? What does Jesus say? Which one said we get or have a remodeled covenant? Neither, that's who!!! Jesus doesn't teach the law no matter how much Truthwave7 points to Mat 19. I point one to John 10 and 17 also the words of Jesus.

 

[listed]

In what way?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7636374-21/#post59911068
Ot/nt, Oc/nc

The OT is reconciled to the NT. The truth of the matter is the covenants aren't the same as promised in the OT. One can never make them the same. The NC covenant is based on better promises as Hebrews 8:6 states. So they don't even have the same foundation. New as used is different from the previously established covenant. There is no getting around not according to... or the new testament in My blood.

 

[tzadik]

The law people wish to make the OC the rule of faith.

What do you mean a rule of faith?

If one can't possess eternal life through the OC, how does it do what the NC does?

What you need to understand is that salvation is through Messiah’s blood and trust in the God of Israel. Either of which are not limited or confined to any covenant, dispensation or anything. The blood of Messiah was shed before the foundation of the world, so salvation is not a chronologically marked instance.

If it can't give it how can it maintain it?

I’m not going to sit here and argue with you about whether or not our salvation is a once in a lifetime event, or if it must be maintained by something. What I am sure of is that Messiah and the Scriptures are pretty explicit that it’s not simply about “believing”, but rather manifesting our faith, through obedience to God’s Will. “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”, “persevere to the end”, “entry to the Kingdom and the Tree of Life, by those who do God’s will and keep His Commandments”, -- I for one think that there’ll be many surprises at the end of the day. That is what Matthew 7 seems to so clearly suggest, that many will say “Lord, Lord”, or claim to have done things in His name, and “believed in Him”, but He will say depart from me, to those who did not do the will of God the Father.
So although it is easy to claim salvation and disregard the life of obedience that is to follow, I think we are better of trying to understand and figure out if God requires more from us than just “simply believe”.

 

[tzadik]

The OT is reconciled to the NT. The truth of the matter is the covenants aren't the same as promised in the OT. One can never make them the same. The NC covenant is based on better promises as Hebrews 8:6 states. So they don't even have the same foundation. New as used is different from the previously established covenant. There is no getting around not according to... or the new testament in My blood.

But NOT on better laws. There’s no getting around that

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by listed The law people wish to make the OC the rule of faith.

What do you mean a rule of faith?

Ummm, the same rule of faith the non-Christian Jews of today go by?

2 Corin 3:14 But was calloused the minds of them.
For until the today, the same covering/kalumma <2571> upon the reading of the Old Covenant/Testament is remaining, no being up-covered/ana-kaluptomenon <343> (5746).
That In Christ it is being-taken-away

Revelation 1:1 An un-covering-veiling/apo-kaluyiV <602> of Jesus Christ which gives to him, the God, to show to the bondservants of Him which things is binding to be becoming in swiftness
And He signifies it, commissioning thru the Messenger of Him, to the bondservants of Him, John.

 

[tzadik]

Ummm, the same rule of faith the non-Christian Jews of today go by?

2 Corin 3:14 But was calloused the minds of them.
For until the today, the same covering/kalumma <2571> upon the reading of the Old Covenant/Testament is remaining, no being up-covered/ana-kaluptomenon <343> (5746).
That In Christ it is being-taken-away

Revelation 1:1 An un-covering-veiling/apo-kaluyiV <602> of Jesus Christ which gives to him, the God, to show to the bondservants of Him which things is binding to be becoming in swiftness
And He signifies it, commissioning thru the Messenger of Him, to the bondservants of Him, John.

Still don't know what you are referring to.
Do you mean they try to keep the commandments in order to attain salvation?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Still don't know what you are referring to.
Do you mean they try to keep the commandments in order to attain salvation?

Try reading Revelation in relation to the covenantle parable of the rich man and lazarus

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary


Matthew 19:20 The young man saith to him, `All these did I keep from my youth; what yet do I lack?'
21 Jesus said to him, `If thou dost will to be perfect, go away, sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, follow me.'
22 And the young man, having heard the word, went away sorrowful, for he had many possessions;
23 and Jesus said to his disciples, `Verily I say to you, that hardly shall a rich man enter into the reign of the heavens;
[Luke 18:21/Mark 10:20

Young) Revelation 14:12 Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping/throunteV <5083> (5723) the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

Young) Revelation 22:14 Happy are those doing/poiounteV <4160> (5723 His commands

 

[listed]

I have yet to find one single soul who can show me in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 where God says that the “NC” will have “BETTER” or even “NEWER” Laws.
This is nowhere to be found, do you know why?? Because there’s no SUCH THING as a “NEW LAW”.
God’s Law is perfect. Do you know what perfect means?
God’s Law is righteousness. Do you know what righteousness means?
God’s Law is spiritual. Do you know what spiritual means?
God’s Law is Truth. Do you know what Truth means?
God’s Law is His Word. Do you know what His Word means?
God’s Law is better than gold. Do you know what better than gold means?
God’s Law is sweeter than honey. Do you know what sweeter than honey means?
God’s Law is faithful. Do you know what faithful means?
God’s Law is a lamp and light to my feet. Do you know what a lamp and light to your feet are?

Give me ONE good reason, better yet ONE verse in the “NC” passage that even insinuates a NEW and improved Law of God?

You can't? What does new mean?

We also have John 15:10 and I John 3:23. Both show new law and laws (commandments). Both use the word commandment(s). Jesus tells Nicodemus that one must be born again, not follow the law. Jesus says He is the door and anyone who tries something else is a theif - John 10. Jesus says the only way to access the Father is through Him - John 14. Jesus doesn't give any other options.

Do you read the forum or just post nonsense about a post you quote? Is Hebrews 8:6 in your Bible? It is in everything I have or can find. If it isn't according to what was established, how can it not be new? The statement is found in both Jeremiah and Hebrews in all my Bibles and those I can find.

If there is no new law then Jesus must be lying in Mat 5:23 and John 13:34. John must be lying in I John 3:23.

Sure do understand what God's law is perfect means. I also understand that one can't possess eternal life by submission to that law as in the OC law. See Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:8-11.

I sure do understand what God's law is spiritual means. Do you? Does it mean the law is applied and required persormance of the fleshly body as a condition of salvation? NO! The flesh is never redeemend, the soul is though.

Yes I do understand what God's law is truth means both the OC law and the NC law which aren't the same. Again I refer everyone to Jer 31 and Heb 8.

Yes I understand what God's law is His word is. Do you understand that Jesus (God) changed this law. Why do you demand that My law is exclusively the covenant made with the COI at Sinai?

I give you Hebrews 8 to disprove and refute your position of a new law and not an improved law.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Why is there a change from covenant in verse 9 to My laws in verse 10. Does't verse 9 say not according to? How then can they be the same?

We also have Heb 7:12 that says the law has changed.

We also have Jesus saying new testament in My blood in 3 Gospels.

We also have Paul saying made a minister of the new covenant. See Col 1. The chapter doesn't say NC but it does say of Christ and not the law.

Do you need more that indicate a difference from the law?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You can't? What does new mean?

We also have John 15:10 and I John 3:23. Both show new law and laws (commandments). Both use the word commandment(s). Jesus tells Nicodemus that one must be born again, not follow the law. Jesus says He is the door and anyone who tries something else is a theif - John 10. Jesus says the only way to access the Father is through Him - John 14. Jesus doesn't give any other options.

Do you read the forum or just post nonsense about a post you quote? Is Hebrews 8:6 in your Bible? It is in everything I have or can find. If it isn't according to what was established, how can it not be new? The statement is found in both Jeremiah and Hebrews in all my Bibles and those I can find.

If there is no new law then Jesus must be lying in Mat 5:23 and John 13:34. John must be lying in I John 3:23.

Sure do understand what God's law is perfect means. I also understand that one can't possess eternal life by submission to that law as in the OC law. See Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:8-11.

We can discuss that on this thread if ya like

http://www.christianforums.com/t7326950-11/#post50011260
New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8

Hebrews 8:6 and now he hath obtained a more excellent service, how much also of a better covenant is he mediator, which on better promises hath been sanctioned,
7 for if that first were faultless, a place would not have been sought for a second.
8 For finding fault, He saith to them, `Lo, days come, saith the Lord, and I will complete with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, a new covenant,

 

[listed]

What do you mean a rule of faith?


What you need to understand is that salvation is through Messiah’s blood and trust in the God of Israel. Either of which are not limited or confined to any covenant, dispensation or anything. The blood of Messiah was shed before the foundation of the world, so salvation is not a chronologically marked instance.

I’m not going to sit here and argue with you about whether or not our salvation is a once in a lifetime event, or if it must be maintained by something. What I am sure of is that Messiah and the Scriptures are pretty explicit that it’s not simply about “believing”, but rather manifesting our faith, through obedience to God’s Will. “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”, “persevere to the end”, “entry to the Kingdom and the Tree of Life, by those who do God’s will and keep His Commandments”, -- I for one think that there’ll be many surprises at the end of the day. That is what Matthew 7 seems to so clearly suggest, that many will say “Lord, Lord”, or claim to have done things in His name, and “believed in Him”, but He will say depart from me, to those who did not do the will of God the Father.
So although it is easy to claim salvation and disregard the life of obedience that is to follow, I think we are better of trying to understand and figure out if God requires more from us than just “simply believe”.

Not lived by or list of rules to maintain our faith.

Yes salvation isn't static. That is why we are led by the Holy Spirit (a dynamic living force) and not the law a (static dead force). I point you to Romans 8, 12 and Gal 5.

 

[listed]

What do you mean a rule of faith?


What you need to understand is that salvation is through Messiah’s blood and trust in the God of Israel. Either of which are not limited or confined to any covenant, dispensation or anything. The blood of Messiah was shed before the foundation of the world, so salvation is not a chronologically marked instance.

I’m not going to sit here and argue with you about whether or not our salvation is a once in a lifetime event, or if it must be maintained by something. What I am sure of is that Messiah and the Scriptures are pretty explicit that it’s not simply about “believing”, but rather manifesting our faith, through obedience to God’s Will. “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”, “persevere to the end”, “entry to the Kingdom and the Tree of Life, by those who do God’s will and keep His Commandments”, -- I for one think that there’ll be many surprises at the end of the day. That is what Matthew 7 seems to so clearly suggest, that many will say “Lord, Lord”, or claim to have done things in His name, and “believed in Him”, but He will say depart from me, to those who did not do the will of God the Father.
So although it is easy to claim salvation and disregard the life of obedience that is to follow, I think we are better of trying to understand and figure out if God requires more from us than just “simply believe”.

While salvation may not be a marked chronoligical event it certianly is affected chronoligically. Before the foundation of the world doesn't show when effected. It shows that it was in the plan as in a part of the manifestation of God's love for mankind and why our enemy is so jealous, angry and bitter.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not lived by or list of rules to maintain our faith.

Yes salvation isn't static. That is why we are led by the Holy Spirit (a dynamic living force) and not the law a (static dead force). I point you to Romans 8, 12 and Gal 5.

I also would point him to this thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7578720-57/#post58058160

The law is for dead people. lol...

.